Re: Form 337

John Berendt · Post by **John Berendt** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:08 am

'Robert,

I will send you a copy of a 337 installing a 200 Ranger in a PT 19. It was
done in Texas over at Austin. I wonder just how many PT 19' are flying with
200 Rangers and no paperwork.

John Berendt

----- Original Message -----
From: "robert hensarling"
To:
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Downey
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:55 PM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
> Tom, have you ever put a 200 hp Ranger in a 19? If so, were you able to
get the paperwork in order for it?
> Robert Hensarling
> Uvalde, Tx
>
>
> --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Michael Denest
> wrote:
> > Tom,
> > Yes, the list says appliance manufacturers approved
> > data can be used. However, in order to use it, the
> > data must have been PREVIOUSLY approved by the
> > Administrator.
>
>
> Every 337 on radio installs I have ever submitted, I used the phrase
> in block 8 of the 337 "Installed IAW the King installation mannual
> number ##, dated xx,xx,xx."
>
> And have never had any problems.
>
> I have never been required to gain pre approval on any radio
> installs done by the book.
>
> Tom Downey, A&P-IA
> http://www2.whidbey.net/nc19143/index.htm
>
>
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'

Robbie Vajdos · Post by **Robbie Vajdos** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:09 am

'Believe it or not - on my last round with the FAA on a conformity check for a Stearman , the avionics specialist informed me that avionics could be installed with a logbook entry only - update equipment list and weight and balance .
Installed GPS/COM and TX w/encoder - just made sure I placarded the installation on the gps for VFR use only .
I'm not sure how others are interpretting things , but this came from the Houston FSDO . Although I did have to hire a DER to provide a form for the alternator installation - something they had field approved a dozen times before .
Robbie Vajdos

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Denest
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337

--- Tom Downey wrote:
>
> Every 337 on radio installs I have ever submitted, I
> used the phrase
> in block 8 of the 337 "Installed IAW the King
> installation mannual
> number ##, dated xx,xx,xx."
>
> And have never had any problems.
>
> I have never been required to gain pre approval on
> any radio
> installs done by the book.
>
> Tom Downey, A&P-IA
> http://www2.whidbey.net/nc19143/index.htm
>
>
That's interesting. I'd like to know what other
information you supply with the 337? I submit a
package with a cover letter, the 337's, a copy of the
installation manual, any AC's that may apply and the
ICA checklist. I send this package before doing the
installation. I make contact with the ASI who will be
reviewing the data and usually get it back within a
couple of weeks with Block 3 stamped and signed off.
So my question now is, what data was missing causing
it to be returned?
Mike Denest A&P IA

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Tom and Carol Burmeister · Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:18 am

'Thanks for the information Tom I will give it another try with the FAA.

Tom Downey wrote:--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Michael Denest
wrote:

> Tom,
> Yes, the list says appliance manufacturers approved
> data can be used. However, in order to use it, the
> data must have been PREVIOUSLY approved by the
> Administrator.

Every 337 on radio installs I have ever submitted, I used the phrase
in block 8 of the 337 "Installed IAW the King installation mannual
number ##, dated xx,xx,xx."

And have never had any problems.

I have never been required to gain pre approval on any radio
installs done by the book.

Tom Downey, A&P-IA
http://www2.whidbey.net/nc19143/index.htm

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robert hensarling · Post by **robert hensarling** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:24 am

'

----- Original Message -----
From: John Berendt
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337

John, would it be hard to get the paperwork even if it's "after-the fact"? The 200 Ranger was installed many years ago.
Robert

Robert,

I will send you a copy of a 337 installing a 200 Ranger in a PT 19. It was
done in Texas over at Austin. I wonder just how many PT 19' are flying with
200 Rangers and no paperwork.

John Berendt
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert hensarling"
To:
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Downey
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:55 PM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
> Tom, have you ever put a 200 hp Ranger in a 19? If so, were you able to
get the paperwork in order for it?
> Robert Hensarling
> Uvalde, Tx
>
>
> --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Michael Denest
> wrote:
> > Tom,
> > Yes, the list says appliance manufacturers approved
> > data can be used. However, in order to use it, the
> > data must have been PREVIOUSLY approved by the
> > Administrator.
>
>
> Every 337 on radio installs I have ever submitted, I used the phrase
> in block 8 of the 337 "Installed IAW the King installation mannual
> number ##, dated xx,xx,xx."
>
> And have never had any problems.
>
> I have never been required to gain pre approval on any radio
> installs done by the book.
>
> Tom Downey, A&P-IA
> http://www2.whidbey.net/nc19143/index.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> fairchildclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> fairchildclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Bob and Dot Haas · Post by **Bob and Dot Haas** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:42 am

'I think there are more 200HP PT's then there are 175's I've
had two in the Washington D.C. area for years, and was never questioned
along those lines.
The DCA GADO could be very tiresome at times, but if you did not ask,
they would not volunteer an answer. Bob Haas

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Hensarling [mailto:rhrocker@hilconet.com]
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 10:38 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337

----- Original Message -----
From: John Berendt
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337

John, would it be hard to get the paperwork even if it's "after-the
fact"? The 200 Ranger was installed many years ago.
Robert

Robert,

I will send you a copy of a 337 installing a 200 Ranger in a PT 19. It
was
done in Texas over at Austin. I wonder just how many PT 19' are
flying with
200 Rangers and no paperwork.

John Berendt
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert hensarling"
To:
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Downey
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:55 PM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
> Tom, have you ever put a 200 hp Ranger in a 19? If so, were you
able to
get the paperwork in order for it?
> Robert Hensarling
> Uvalde, Tx
>
>
> --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Michael Denest
> wrote:
> > Tom,
> > Yes, the list says appliance manufacturers approved
> > data can be used. However, in order to use it, the
> > data must have been PREVIOUSLY approved by the
> > Administrator.
>
>
> Every 337 on radio installs I have ever submitted, I used the
phrase
> in block 8 of the 337 "Installed IAW the King installation mannual
> number ##, dated xx,xx,xx."
>
> And have never had any problems.
>
> I have never been required to gain pre approval on any radio
> installs done by the book.
>
> Tom Downey, A&P-IA
> http://www2.whidbey.net/nc19143/index.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> fairchildclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> fairchildclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Michael Denest · Post by **Michael Denest** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:54 pm

'Approvals

We'll folks, this discussion sounds like each FSDO is
doing things a different way. The inspectors 8300.10
manual regarding field approvals (change 16) is a
standardization by FAA about how ALL FSDO's will be
managed. In the past, what worked for you and what
worked for me were two different things. Now, with
Change 16 in effect, ALL FSDO's will use the same
procedure. What works for me is to create a data
package the inspector can review and send back to me.
It works and I get my approvals. My bottom line is
this: If it ain't on the Type Certificate Data Sheet,
it ain't approved until I substantiate the
installation. FAA's big concern these days is
unapproved parts and they want to insure that people
are doing what they are saying.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
Mike

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John Berendt · Post by **John Berendt** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 9:42 am

'Robert,

I should not be that hard to do. It would depend on the eFSDO office. Lets
ask Mike Denest. Mike were any of all the PT-19's that you and Joe restored
have 200 rangers. if so how did you do the paperwork.

John Berendt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Hensarling"
To:
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Berendt
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
>
> John, would it be hard to get the paperwork even if it's "after-the
fact"? The 200 Ranger was installed many years ago.
> Robert
>
>
> Robert,
>
> I will send you a copy of a 337 installing a 200 Ranger in a PT 19. It
was
> done in Texas over at Austin. I wonder just how many PT 19' are flying
with
> 200 Rangers and no paperwork.
>
> John Berendt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "robert hensarling"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 7:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tom Downey
> > To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:55 PM
> > Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
> > Tom, have you ever put a 200 hp Ranger in a 19? If so, were you
able to
> get the paperwork in order for it?
> > Robert Hensarling
> > Uvalde, Tx
> >
> >
> > --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Michael Denest
> > wrote:
> > > Tom,
> > > Yes, the list says appliance manufacturers approved
> > > data can be used. However, in order to use it, the
> > > data must have been PREVIOUSLY approved by the
> > > Administrator.
> >
> >
> > Every 337 on radio installs I have ever submitted, I used the phrase
> > in block 8 of the 337 "Installed IAW the King installation mannual
> > number ##, dated xx,xx,xx."
> >
> > And have never had any problems.
> >
> > I have never been required to gain pre approval on any radio
> > installs done by the book.
> >
> > Tom Downey, A&P-IA
> > http://www2.whidbey.net/nc19143/index.htm
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > fairchildclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > fairchildclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>

'

Michael Denest · Post by **Michael Denest** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 1:39 pm

'John,
Your question should be "How is a 337 for a Ranger
200hp engine installation on a PT-19 airframe
completed?"
My answer is to go back and review what is approved
data. The Type Certificate Data Sheet (ATC 724) is
approved data. The Ranger 200hp engine is listed on
ATC 724. Therefore, your 337 should reference ATC 724
as approved data for your installation. Fill out the
block "Description of work performed" and describe
what you did and the references. Sign and date the
337 and mail it in. BTW, this is classed as an
alteration.
However there's a catch to all this. When you install
the 200, you must change the model designation. Your
M62A now becomes a M62A-3 or -4 (pick one). Your
Airworthiness Certificate must also be changed to show
the new model number designation.
Ok now you say "I don't want to go through all that".
That's ok but will an IA performing an annual
inspection sign off the aircraft as airworthy? That's
for him to decide. FAA leaves it up to the IA to
determine airworthiness.

--- John Berendt wrote:

> Robert,
>
> I should not be that hard to do. It would depend on
> the eFSDO office. Lets
> ask Mike Denest. Mike were any of all the PT-19's
> that you and Joe restored
> have 200 rangers. if so how did you do the
> paperwork.
>
> John Berendt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Hensarling"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Berendt
> > To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 9:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
> >
> > John, would it be hard to get the paperwork even
> if it's "after-the
> fact"? The 200 Ranger was installed many years ago.
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > I will send you a copy of a 337 installing a 200
> Ranger in a PT 19. It
> was
> > done in Texas over at Austin. I wonder just how
> many PT 19' are flying
> with
> > 200 Rangers and no paperwork.
> >
> > John Berendt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "robert hensarling"
>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 7:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Tom Downey
> > > To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:55 PM
> > > Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: Form 337
> > > Tom, have you ever put a 200 hp Ranger in a
> 19? If so, were you
> able to
> > get the paperwork in order for it?
> > > Robert Hensarling
> > > Uvalde, Tx
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com,
> Michael Denest
> > > wrote:
> > > > Tom,
> > > > Yes, the list says appliance manufacturers
> approved
> > > > data can be used. However, in order to
> use it, the
> > > > data must have been PREVIOUSLY approved by
> the
> > > > Administrator.
> > >
> > >
> > > Every 337 on radio installs I have ever
> submitted, I used the phrase
> > > in block 8 of the 337 "Installed IAW the
> King installation mannual
> > > number ##, dated xx,xx,xx."
> > >
> > > And have never had any problems.
> > >
> > > I have never been required to gain pre
> approval on any radio
> > > installs done by the book.
> > >
> > > Tom Downey, A&P-IA
> > > http://www2.whidbey.net/nc19143/index.htm

__________________________________
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tonyb42uk · Post by **tonyb42uk** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:14 pm

'Mike,
You raise an interesting point. I understand what you say about
redesignating as a M-62A as a M-62A-3/4 when fitted with the 200 hp
Ranger. In fact it was Joe who first explained this to me when I
asked him why there were so many examples with PT-19 c/nos.
designated as M-62A-4.

Historically, the M-62A-3 and M-62A-4 designations applied to the
various PT-26 variants and so I had been mystified as to why a
number of aircraft with PT-19 manufacturer's serial were listed in
the US Civil Register, in effect, as PT-26's. I seem to recall your
father saying this was required when the the PT-19's engine was
replaced with a Ranger 6-440-C5 model or the engine upgraded to that
standard.

What I am still unclear about is what was the original difference
between the M-62A-3 and the M-62A-4. It would easy to assume one
type number applied to the Fairchild-built PT-26 and the other to
the Fleet-built PT-26A/B, but this does not appear to be the case.

To quote ATC-724 -- "The M-62A-4 is identical to the M-62A-3 and
both are the same as the model M-62A except for engine." If they
are identical, why the two designations? Does the difference lie in
the actual model of Ranger engine fitted?

The PT-26 'Take-off & Landing Chart' and 'Flight Operation
Instruction Chart' in T.O.No. 01-115GA refer to "Engine Models L-440-
3, -7"

So what was/is the difference between the L-440-C3 and the L-440-C7;
-- vacuum pump, generator,or perhaps the carb? Might this have some
bearing on the M-62-A3/-4 designations?

Would appreciate your thoughts on this.

As an aside, the USAAF records of some of the twelve late model PT-
19A diverted to Columbia in 1944 refer to an engine change to 200 hp
and the fitting of auxillary tanks, presumably to aid the ferry
flight.

Regards, Tony Broadhurst

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Michael Denest
wrote:

> However there's a catch to all this. When you install
> the 200, you must change the model designation. Your
> M62A now becomes a M62A-3 or -4 (pick one). Your
> Airworthiness Certificate must also be changed to show
> the new model number designation.

'

pt19b2001 · Post by **pt19b2001** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:44 pm

'Tony,

The difference between the L-440-C3 and the L-440-C-7 is that the C3
has a unshielded harness and the C7 is shielded.

Please visit my website http://www.riffle-aviation.com I recently
updated it.

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, "tonyb42uk"

wrote:

> Mike,
> You raise an interesting point. I understand what you say about
> redesignating as a M-62A as a M-62A-3/4 when fitted with the 200

hp

> Ranger. In fact it was Joe who first explained this to me when I
> asked him why there were so many examples with PT-19 c/nos.
> designated as M-62A-4.
>
> Historically, the M-62A-3 and M-62A-4 designations applied to the
> various PT-26 variants and so I had been mystified as to why a
> number of aircraft with PT-19 manufacturer's serial were listed in
> the US Civil Register, in effect, as PT-26's. I seem to recall

your

> father saying this was required when the the PT-19's engine was
> replaced with a Ranger 6-440-C5 model or the engine upgraded to

that

> standard.
>
> What I am still unclear about is what was the original difference
> between the M-62A-3 and the M-62A-4. It would easy to assume one
> type number applied to the Fairchild-built PT-26 and the other to
> the Fleet-built PT-26A/B, but this does not appear to be the case.
>
> To quote ATC-724 -- "The M-62A-4 is identical to the M-62A-3 and
> both are the same as the model M-62A except for engine." If they
> are identical, why the two designations? Does the difference lie

in

> the actual model of Ranger engine fitted?
>
> The PT-26 'Take-off & Landing Chart' and 'Flight Operation
> Instruction Chart' in T.O.No. 01-115GA refer to "Engine Models L-

440-

> 3, -7"
>
> So what was/is the difference between the L-440-C3 and the L-440-

C7;

> -- vacuum pump, generator,or perhaps the carb? Might this have

some

> bearing on the M-62-A3/-4 designations?
>
> Would appreciate your thoughts on this.
>
> As an aside, the USAAF records of some of the twelve late model PT-
> 19A diverted to Columbia in 1944 refer to an engine change to 200

hp

> and the fitting of auxillary tanks, presumably to aid the ferry
> flight.
>
> Regards, Tony Broadhurst
>
>
> --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Michael Denest
> wrote:
> > However there's a catch to all this. When you install
> > the 200, you must change the model designation. Your
> > M62A now becomes a M62A-3 or -4 (pick one). Your
> > Airworthiness Certificate must also be changed to show
> > the new model number designation.

'