Re: Fuel Caps

An archive of all the messages posted in the old Fairchild Club Yahoo Group. It is not possible to start a new topic in this forum (please use one of the other forums for new threads), but you can continue to post on existing topics.
Post Reply
mcclurebill@rocketmail.com
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:55 pm

Fuel Caps

Post by mcclurebill@rocketmail.com »

'Not to ignite another controversy, just a legitimate question. My 24G has the art deco,automotive Norlipp fuel caps. Despite having been warned, and keeping an eye on them, I've had two incidents where one of the caps failed to vent properly, apparently due to the gaskets becoming mis-aligned. I really don't see the point of staying with that type of cap, and am thinking of simply replacing with a more "normal" latter-day vented cap. I am wondering if others have had similar problems and done the same. And, yes, I understand legalities, etc.

I had heard when I started this Fairchild experience that there had been episodes of power loss on takeoff, possibly attributed to vapor lock at high ambient temperatures, possibly after short ground shutdowns. I am of the opinion that this issue with caps failing to vent may very well be the problem. I've seen it twice already, and low-altitude valve switching saved the day. Not the best practice.'
Hugh Loewenhardt
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Fuel Caps

Post by Hugh Loewenhardt »

'Bill,
 I will share with you what was explained to me some time ago by George Olsen, a former Fairchild G model owner and Warner engine parts dealer who experienced loss of power (twice) on takeoff as you have. The vapor lock, air binding(whatever one calls it) problem is due to the design configured run of the fuel lines from the wing tanks to the fuel strainer for the following reason: with the aircraft in the three point position on the ground, the high point of the fuel line will be above the low point of the fuel tank. Consequently, an air pocket will form at the high point in the fuel line when filling an empty fuel tank. In level flight, the high point in the fuel line is below the tank bottom. Also know that air entrained in the fuel after initial fill can also migrate to the high point when in the three point attitude. The fuel lines must be purged of the formed air pocket at the high point at least upon initial filling of an empty
fuel tank. Mr. Olsen also installed and recommened forward facing vent lines in the fuel caps to further overcome loss of fuel flow on takeoff which I will install on my Fairchild. We did not discuss the air purging process, but I reason that upon initial  filling of an empty fuel tank,  raising the tail  to get the high point of the fuel line above the bottom of the fuel tank and draining at the strainer for a steady stream of fuel to prevent air migration back up the line would work to purge air from the fuel lines. Also, making the takeoff run on the fuel tank having the shortest run to fuel strainer would be recommended if not mandated (I beleive it is) for Fairchild aircraft.
 Also know that during installation of the fuel system on my C8C project, I did in fact verify that the high points in the fuel lines will be above the bottom of the fuel tank, not by much but enough to be problematic, as advised by Mr. Olsen many years ago. I do know that I never, ever want to experience what you and Mr. Olsen did on takeoff. Final thought: my C8C has an eight inch tailwheel. Not sure what size on the G model but I know that the 1940 models have ten inch tailwheels which my have been a design change to help solve the inherant fuel line problem.
 
Hope some of this helps,
 Hugh


________________________________
From: "mcclurebill@rocketmail.com"
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 9:29 AM
Subject: [fairchildclub] Fuel Caps


 

Not to ignite another controversy, just a legitimate question. My 24G has the art deco,automotive Norlipp fuel caps. Despite having been warned, and keeping an eye on them, I've had two incidents where one of the caps failed to vent properly, apparently due to the gaskets becoming mis-aligned. I really don't see the point of staying with that type of cap, and am thinking of simply replacing with a more "normal" latter-day vented cap. I am wondering if others have had similar problems and done the same. And, yes, I understand legalities, etc.

I had heard when I started this Fairchild experience that there had been episodes of power loss on takeoff, possibly attributed to vapor lock at high ambient temperatures, possibly after short ground shutdowns. I am of the opinion that this issue with caps failing to vent may very well be the problem. I've seen it twice already, and low-altitude valve switching saved the day. Not the best practice.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'
Bill McClure
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:22 am

Re: Fuel Caps

Post by Bill McClure »

'Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense, seems like it argues for not letting the tank run down too far before filling.
In my case, it was clear that venting of the right cap was implicated, for a number of reasons. Once the issue was corrected, ops normal. The second turned out to be a valve problem.....kind of a long story but bottom line was a much later valve assy had been installed. All ok now.
Still feel the venting issue has probably caused more incidents than many think. Original question remains: Have many of these early caps been replaced with more common vented caps, say Cessna style? I'm thinking a forward facing ram vent might be a good idea.

Bill McClure

Sent from my iPad
On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:14 PM, Hugh Loewenhardt wrote:

> Bill,
> I will share with you what was explained to me some time ago by George Olsen, a former Fairchild G model owner and Warner engine parts dealer who experienced loss of power (twice) on takeoff as you have. The vapor lock, air binding(whatever one calls it) problem is due to the design configured run of the fuel lines from the wing tanks to the fuel strainer for the following reason: with the aircraft in the three point position on the ground, the high point of the fuel line will be above the low point of the fuel tank. Consequently, an air pocket will form at the high point in the fuel line when filling an empty fuel tank. In level flight, the high point in the fuel line is below the tank bottom. Also know that air entrained in the fuel after initial fill can also migrate to the high point when in the three point attitude. The fuel lines must be purged of the formed air pocket at the high point at least upon initial filling of an empty
> fuel tank. Mr. Olsen also installed and recommened forward facing vent lines in the fuel caps to further overcome loss of fuel flow on takeoff which I will install on my Fairchild. We did not discuss the air purging process, but I reason that upon initial filling of an empty fuel tank, raising the tail to get the high point of the fuel line above the bottom of the fuel tank and draining at the strainer for a steady stream of fuel to prevent air migration back up the line would work to purge air from the fuel lines. Also, making the takeoff run on the fuel tank having the shortest run to fuel strainer would be recommended if not mandated (I beleive it is) for Fairchild aircraft.
> Also know that during installation of the fuel system on my C8C project, I did in fact verify that the high points in the fuel lines will be above the bottom of the fuel tank, not by much but enough to be problematic, as advised by Mr. Olsen many years ago. I do know that I never, ever want to experience what you and Mr. Olsen did on takeoff. Final thought: my C8C has an eight inch tailwheel. Not sure what size on the G model but I know that the 1940 models have ten inch tailwheels which my have been a design change to help solve the inherant fuel line problem.
>
> Hope some of this helps,
> Hugh
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "mcclurebill@rocketmail.com"
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 9:29 AM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Fuel Caps
>
>
>
>
> Not to ignite another controversy, just a legitimate question. My 24G has the art deco,automotive Norlipp fuel caps. Despite having been warned, and keeping an eye on them, I've had two incidents where one of the caps failed to vent properly, apparently due to the gaskets becoming mis-aligned. I really don't see the point of staying with that type of cap, and am thinking of simply replacing with a more "normal" latter-day vented cap. I am wondering if others have had similar problems and done the same. And, yes, I understand legalities, etc.
>
> I had heard when I started this Fairchild experience that there had been episodes of power loss on takeoff, possibly attributed to vapor lock at high ambient temperatures, possibly after short ground shutdowns. I am of the opinion that this issue with caps failing to vent may very well be the problem. I've seen it twice already, and low-altitude valve switching saved the day. Not the best practice.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'
Hugh Loewenhardt
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Fuel Caps

Post by Hugh Loewenhardt »

'Bill,
 If you have the G model fuel system schematic on hand you can very simply demonstrate the problem to yourself by rotating the fuel line and tank on the flat page or rotate the page into the three point attitude of the airplane. You will see that the horizontal-to-vertical bend in the fuel line becomes  the high point of the system rising above the low after end of fuel tank and you can then be see how filling an empty tank in the tail low attitude would push air into fuel line which would/could lodge at the high point in the bend causing air binding of fuel flow. I have verified that early F-24 up to the G model did have eight inch tailwheels as opposed to ten inch wheels on later models. Perhaps a design change by Fairchild to help alliveate the problem?
 
 Hugh L


________________________________
From: Bill McClure
To: "fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Fuel Caps


 

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense, seems like it argues for not letting the tank run down too far before filling.
In my case, it was clear that venting of the right cap was implicated, for a number of reasons. Once the issue was corrected, ops normal. The second turned out to be a valve problem.....kind of a long story but bottom line was a much later valve assy had been installed. All ok now.
Still feel the venting issue has probably caused more incidents than many think. Original question remains: Have many of these early caps been replaced with more common vented caps, say Cessna style? I'm thinking a forward facing ram vent might be a good idea.

Bill McClure

Sent from my iPad
On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:14 PM, Hugh Loewenhardt wrote:

> Bill,
> I will share with you what was explained to me some time ago by George Olsen, a former Fairchild G model owner and Warner engine parts dealer who experienced loss of power (twice) on takeoff as you have. The vapor lock, air binding(whatever one calls it) problem is due to the design configured run of the fuel lines from the wing tanks to the fuel strainer for the following reason: with the aircraft in the three point position on the ground, the high point of the fuel line will be above the low point of the fuel tank. Consequently, an air pocket will form at the high point in the fuel line when filling an empty fuel tank. In level flight, the high point in the fuel line is below the tank bottom. Also know that air entrained in the fuel after initial fill can also migrate to the high point when in the three point attitude. The fuel lines must be purged of the formed air pocket at the high point at least upon initial filling of an empty
> fuel tank. Mr. Olsen also installed and recommened forward facing vent lines in the fuel caps to further overcome loss of fuel flow on takeoff which I will install on my Fairchild. We did not discuss the air purging process, but I reason that upon initial filling of an empty fuel tank, raising the tail to get the high point of the fuel line above the bottom of the fuel tank and draining at the strainer for a steady stream of fuel to prevent air migration back up the line would work to purge air from the fuel lines. Also, making the takeoff run on the fuel tank having the shortest run to fuel strainer would be recommended if not mandated (I beleive it is) for Fairchild aircraft.
> Also know that during installation of the fuel system on my C8C project, I did in fact verify that the high points in the fuel lines will be above the bottom of the fuel tank, not by much but enough to be problematic, as advised by Mr. Olsen many years ago. I do know that I never, ever want to experience what you and Mr. Olsen did on takeoff. Final thought: my C8C has an eight inch tailwheel. Not sure what size on the G model but I know that the 1940 models have ten inch tailwheels which my have been a design change to help solve the inherant fuel line problem.
>
> Hope some of this helps,
> Hugh
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "mailto:mcclurebill%40rocketmail.com"
> To: mailto:fairchildclub%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 9:29 AM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Fuel Caps
>
>
>
>
> Not to ignite another controversy, just a legitimate question. My 24G has the art deco,automotive Norlipp fuel caps. Despite having been warned, and keeping an eye on them, I've had two incidents where one of the caps failed to vent properly, apparently due to the gaskets becoming mis-aligned. I really don't see the point of staying with that type of cap, and am thinking of simply replacing with a more "normal" latter-day vented cap. I am wondering if others have had similar problems and done the same. And, yes, I understand legalities, etc.
>
> I had heard when I started this Fairchild experience that there had been episodes of power loss on takeoff, possibly attributed to vapor lock at high ambient temperatures, possibly after short ground shutdowns. I am of the opinion that this issue with caps failing to vent may very well be the problem. I've seen it twice already, and low-altitude valve switching saved the day. Not the best practice.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'
burnmcc@aol.com
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:19 pm

Re: Fuel Caps

Post by burnmcc@aol.com »

'It's interesting, and I believe valid. In this particular case, the tank had not been refilled, had plenty of fuel, and when inspected after the event I could see that there was a venting problem. Fixed same, ops OK.

Simply put, I'm just wondering if anyone has replaced this cap, and with what?

Bill McC



-----Original Message-----
From: Hugh Loewenhardt
To: fairchildclub
Sent: Thu, Dec 13, 2012 10:05 pm
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Fuel Caps




Bill,
If you have the G model fuel system schematic on hand you can very simply demonstrate the problem to yourself by rotating the fuel line and tank on the flat page or rotate the page into the three point attitude of the airplane. You will see that the horizontal-to-vertical bend in the fuel line becomes the high point of the system rising above the low after end of fuel tank and you can then be see how filling an empty tank in the tail low attitude would push air into fuel line which would/could lodge at the high point in the bend causing air binding of fuel flow. I have verified that early F-24 up to the G model did have eight inch tailwheels as opposed to ten inch wheels on later models. Perhaps a design change by Fairchild to help alliveate the problem?

Hugh L


________________________________
From: Bill McClure
To: "fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Fuel Caps




Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense, seems like it argues for not letting the tank run down too far before filling.
In my case, it was clear that venting of the right cap was implicated, for a number of reasons. Once the issue was corrected, ops normal. The second turned out to be a valve problem.....kind of a long story but bottom line was a much later valve assy had been installed. All ok now.
Still feel the venting issue has probably caused more incidents than many think. Original question remains: Have many of these early caps been replaced with more common vented caps, say Cessna style? I'm thinking a forward facing ram vent might be a good idea.

Bill McClure

Sent from my iPad
On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:14 PM, Hugh Loewenhardt ; wrote:

> Bill,
> I will share with you what was explained to me some time ago by George Olsen, a former Fairchild G model owner and Warner engine parts dealer who experienced loss of power (twice) on takeoff as you have. The vapor lock, air binding(whatever one calls it) problem is due to the design configured run of the fuel lines from the wing tanks to the fuel strainer for the following reason: with the aircraft in the three point position on the ground, the high point of the fuel line will be above the low point of the fuel tank. Consequently, an air pocket will form at the high point in the fuel line when filling an empty fuel tank. In level flight, the high point in the fuel line is below the tank bottom. Also know that air entrained in the fuel after initial fill can also migrate to the high point when in the three point attitude. The fuel lines must be purged of the formed air pocket at the high point at least upon initial filling of an empty
> fuel tank. Mr. Olsen also installed and recommened forward facing vent lines in the fuel caps to further overcome loss of fuel flow on takeoff which I will install on my Fairchild. We did not discuss the air purging process, but I reason that upon initial filling of an empty fuel tank, raising the tail to get the high point of the fuel line above the bottom of the fuel tank and draining at the strainer for a steady stream of fuel to prevent air migration back up the line would work to purge air from the fuel lines. Also, making the takeoff run on the fuel tank having the shortest run to fuel strainer would be recommended if not mandated (I beleive it is) for Fairchild aircraft.
> Also know that during installation of the fuel system on my C8C project, I did in fact verify that the high points in the fuel lines will be above the bottom of the fuel tank, not by much but enough to be problematic, as advised by Mr. Olsen many years ago. I do know that I never, ever want to experience what you and Mr. Olsen did on takeoff. Final thought: my C8C has an eight inch tailwheel. Not sure what size on the G model but I know that the 1940 models have ten inch tailwheels which my have been a design change to help solve the inherant fuel line problem.
>
> Hope some of this helps,
> Hugh
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "mailto:mcclurebill%40rocketmail.com"; ;
> To: mailto:fairchildclub%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 9:29 AM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Fuel Caps
>
>
>
>
> Not to ignite another controversy, just a legitimate question. My 24G has the art deco,automotive Norlipp fuel caps. Despite having been warned, and keeping an eye on them, I've had two incidents where one of the caps failed to vent properly, apparently due to the gaskets becoming mis-aligned. I really don't see the point of staying with that type of cap, and am thinking of simply replacing with a more "normal" latter-day vented cap. I am wondering if others have had similar problems and done the same. And, yes, I understand legalities, etc.
>
> I had heard when I started this Fairchild experience that there had been episodes of power loss on takeoff, possibly attributed to vapor lock at high ambient temperatures, possibly after short ground shutdowns. I am of the opinion that this issue with caps failing to vent may very well be the problem. I've seen it twice already, and low-altitude valve switching saved the day. Not the best practice.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'
Mark Gilmore
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:46 pm

FS-111 vs. S-111 universal joints

Post by Mark Gilmore »

'Should the FS-111 (heavy universal) be on both ends of the strut?
N81288 has 2 of each, 2 FS-111 and 2 F-111. If we need FS-111's at both ends any ides where to find them?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'
mileslong2k
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Fuel Caps

Post by mileslong2k »

'Was just looking at the picture of a Fairchild 24J, NC19177 owned by Mark Lancaster, on Face Book. A beautiful shot of the plane taking off. In this picture you can see two forward facing vent tubes on the fuel caps. I wonder what type of cap he has?

Jim'
mileslong2k
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Fuel Caps

Post by mileslong2k »

'I should have mentioned the photo of Fairchild 24J, NC19177 was on the Antique Airfield's Face Book page.'
Hugh Loewenhardt
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Fuel Caps

Post by Hugh Loewenhardt »

' Jim, Suggestion;
   To answer your question on what fuel tank caps Mark Lancaster has on NC19177; Mark is an Antique Aircraft Association director. So, you can reach him via the AAA and ask him direct about the fuel tank caps. Share the information with the group if you get it. Contact info for the AAA is on their home page.
 
 
 

 

________________________________
From: mileslong2k
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 12:04 PM
Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: Fuel Caps


 



Was just looking at the picture of a Fairchild 24J, NC19177 owned by Mark Lancaster, on Face Book. A beautiful shot of the plane taking off. In this picture you can see two forward facing vent tubes on the fuel caps. I wonder what type of cap he has?

Jim




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'
Post Reply