Re: pilot training time in PTs

[ccmueller001]

'I'm curious - What would be the typical amount of time a new pilot-in-training would have in a PT-19 or -26 before moving on to a heavier and more powerful aircraft? I'm thinking about the training that was common in the WW II days.'

[Curt Kinchen]

'I've always heard about 60 hours.  It varied depending on different factors. I've heard similar numbers for each phase, basic and advanced.  Things varied though with the demand for pilots.  As an example, the number graduating depended upon how many pilots needed, not on how many of a particular class were qualified.  
Another interesting fact I heard from a WW2 instructor is that they did not always put the student in the front seat.  Some classes they would put through in the front and some they would put all the way through in the backseat.



[quote] On Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 12:15 PM cmueller@csuchico.edu [fairchildclub]

[tony anger]

'About 50 hours


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From: cmueller@csuchico.edu [fairchildclub]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 1:15 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fairchildclub] pilot training time in PTs

 
I'm curious - What would be the typical amount of time a new pilot-in-training would have in a PT-19 or -26 before moving on to a heavier and more powerful aircraft? I'm thinking about the training that was common in the WW II days.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'

[Brian Baldridge]

'Charles. The Chico Air Museum has the logbook of Wayne DeCow who flew BT13’s at Chico Army Air Field.   Went on to many missions in the B-24 over Europe. His Primary Training record is in the logbook. We can look at it to verify, but I seem to remember about 80 flight hours in PT-22’s and the like before moving to Chico for Basic Training stage. Could be wrong, but the logbook is there for your research. Would be nice to verify. 

Brian Baldridge

On Jan 18, 2019, at 12:11 PM, cmueller@csuchico.edu [fairchildclub] wrote:

 
I'm curious - What would be the typical amount of time a new pilot-in-training would have in a PT-19 or -26 before moving on to a heavier and more powerful aircraft? I'm thinking about the training that was common in the WW II days. '

[tonyb42uk]

'Charles and all those interested,

I have looked through my resources today and compiled the following...

The hours flown at the primary/elementary stage were not a constant throughout W.W.2.  Both the actual sylabus and the duration of the course were altered on several occasions.  These changes might be intended to increase the level of experience and skill of the students or to increase the overall output to the next stage at a time of a pilot shortage.   The early days was a continuing crisis in providing sufficient pilots and courses might reduced in length and scope just to provided the target output.  By the end of 1943 the Allies recognised they were training more pilots than there was a foreseeable need for.  The first result of this was to close a number of RAF and RCAF elementary flying schools.  This was followed by an increase in the length of their elementary courses thereby reducing the overall output.  I also note most of the USAAF contract primary flying schools closed during 1944.

The log books shows there is variation in flying times between individual students.

In the beginning.....
In the summer of 1939 the U.S. Army Air Corps negotiated with the first nine civil contract school operators to provide a 12 week course of primary flight instruction.  As the program expanded this was reduced first to 10 weeks and again soon after Pearl Harbour to 9 weeks, returning to 10 weeks from March 1944 and to finally to 15 weeks after VJ Day. 
To quote the official history - `The Army Air Forces in World War II', Craven and Cates..
"The instruction given at the contract schools was an adaptation of the primary phase formerly taught at Randolph Field.  Although  the number of weeks allotted to primary training was sharply reduced, the number of flying hours had remained almost constant after the original requirement of sixty-five hours had been trimmed to sixty in March 1942.  In that year an unsuccessful attempt was made to add instrument, night and navigation instruction to the curriculum, but otherwise the program remained virtually the same during the war."

From June 1941 courses of RAF student pilots began flying training in the U.S.A., one of Britain's benefits from the Lend-Lease Act.   Some attended the "Arnold Schools" were they were trained on Stearman PTs and according to the USAAF sylabus.  Others were posted to one of seven British Flying Training Schools where the aircraft were supplied from USAAC stocks, with civilian instructors, and on the RAF flying training sylabus.  Just one of these establishments used the Fairchild PT-19A, a few of which were modified to provide instruments tuition.  Two BFTS log book summaries are listed below.

The civilian operators of the first British Commonwealth Air Training Plan elementary schools in Canada were contracted to provide training for flying students from Canada and the Commonwealth with a 9 week course of instruction.  Ths duration of BCATP program also underwent various changes.  The first schools opened in 1940 and conversion to the Fairchld Cornell began in late 1942.  One Canadian log book example listed below.

The Rhodesian Air Training Group elementary schools began conversion to the PT-26A Cornell from October 1943.  The Rhodesian log book summary below is from one of the last courses.

One of the two Elementary Flying Training Schools in India began the conversion  to PT-26A and PT-26B Cornell in July 1944.  An Indian logbook summary is below.

Summaries from RAF & RCAF log books:
No.3 British Flying Training School, Miami, Oklahoma.
November 1941 to April 1942.
Primary stage on Fairchild PT-19A, Nov 4/41 to Jan16/42.
Day    -   35.16 dual and 48.19 solo.
Night - 1.01 dual and 0.59 solo.
Basic stage on Vultee BT-13A, Jan 26 to Mar 14/42.
Day   -   22.29 dual and 32.06 solo.
Night - 3.40 dual and 1.20 solo.
Advanced stage on North American AT-6A, Mar 17 to Apr 30/42.
Day   -   18.10 dual and 26.37 solo.
Night - 4.23 dual and 4.23 solo.

BT-13As retired and replaced by additional AT-6 from November 1942.
 
March to September 1943.
Primary stage of Fairchild PT-19A
April 1 to May 22, 1943.
Day   -   30.37 dual and 35.56 solo.
Night - 3.32 dual and 0.30 solo.
Advanced stage on AT-6A
May 31 to September 24, 1943.
Day   -    60.51 dual and 49.14 solo.
Night -  11.42 dual and 9.19 solo. 
(BT-13A retired and replaced by additional AT-6 from November 1942.)

No.32 Elementary Flying Training School, Bowden, Alberta.
September 21 to November 11, 1943.
Fairchild PT-26 and PT-26A Cornell.
Total Dual Cornell - 35.50.
     "     Solo Cornell - 28.35.
 Instrument Flying - 7.10.
Dual Navigation     -  4.10.
Solo Navigation     -  4.30.
Night Flying Dual   -  4.15.
Night Flying Solo   -  0.50.

No.28 Elementary Flying Training School, Mount Hampden, Southern Rhodesia.
April 16 to June 21, 1945.
Day   -  39.10 dual and 35.10 solo.
Night -  4.00 dual and 1.00 solo.
Instrument Flying - 8.00. (plus 13 hours Link Training)

No.2 Elementary Flying Training School, Jodhpur, India.
March 20 to June 5, 1945.
Day   -  45.05 Dual and 35.35 solo.
Night - 1.00 Dual.
Instrument Flying - 8.30.

Hope this helps, Tony Broadhurst.'

[ccmueller001]

'Tony,
Many thank yous for the detailed response to my flight time question. It is interesting how the training times varied, often to meet the immediate needs of the various air forces for new pilots. As revealed in several books about WW II sometime pilots entered combat with marginal training, and paid the price.
Thank you,Charles
'

[M oparz]

' Tony, 
GREAT info! Thanks for taking the time to write all that up. Some good insights there on how the training process evolved over the course of the war.
Again, many thanks! Jase


Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7.

-------- Original message -------- From: "broadhurst@talk21.com [fairchildclub]" Date: 1/20/19 4:14 PM (GMT-05:00) To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] pilot training time in PTs
 
Charles and all those interested,

I have looked through my resources today and compiled the following...

The hours flown at the primary/elementary stage were not a constant throughout W.W.2.  Both the actual sylabus and the duration of the course were altered on several occasions.  These changes might be intended to increase the level of experience and skill of the students or to increase the overall output to the next stage at a time of a pilot shortage.   The early days was a continuing crisis in providing sufficient pilots and courses might reduced in length and scope just to provided the target output.  By the end of 1943 the Allies recognised they were training more pilots than there was a foreseeable need for.  The first result of this was to close a number of RAF and RCAF elementary flying schools.  This was followed by an increase in the length of their elementary courses thereby reducing the overall output.  I also note most of the USAAF contract primary flying schools closed during 1944.

The log books shows there is variation in flying times between individual students.

In the beginning.....
In the summer of 1939 the U.S. Army Air Corps negotiated with the first nine civil contract school operators to provide a 12 week course of primary flight instruction.  As the program expanded this was reduced first to 10 weeks and again soon after Pearl Harbour to 9 weeks, returning to 10 weeks from March 1944 and to finally to 15 weeks after VJ Day. 
To quote the official history - `The Army Air Forces in World War II', Craven and Cates..
"The instruction given at the contract schools was an adaptation of the primary phase formerly taught at Randolph Field.  Although  the number of weeks allotted to primary training was sharply reduced, the number of flying hours had remained almost constant after the original requirement of sixty-five hours had been trimmed to sixty in March 1942.  In that year an unsuccessful attempt was made to add instrument, night and navigation instruction to the curriculum, but otherwise the program remained virtually the same during the war."

From June 1941 courses of RAF student pilots began flying training in the U.S.A., one of Britain's benefits from the Lend-Lease Act.   Some attended the "Arnold Schools" were they were trained on Stearman PTs and according to the USAAF sylabus.  Others were posted to one of seven British Flying Training Schools where the aircraft were supplied from USAAC stocks, with civilian instructors, and on the RAF flying training sylabus.  Just one of these establishments used the Fairchild PT-19A, a few of which were modified to provide instruments tuition.  Two BFTS log book summaries are listed below.

The civilian operators of the first British Commonwealth Air Training Plan elementary schools in Canada were contracted to provide training for flying students from Canada and the Commonwealth with a 9 week course of instruction.  Ths duration of BCATP program also underwent various changes.  The first schools opened in 1940 and conversion to the Fairchld Cornell began in late 1942.  One Canadian log book example listed below.

The Rhodesian Air Training Group elementary schools began conversion to the PT-26A Cornell from October 1943.  The Rhodesian log book summary below is from one of the last courses.

One of the two Elementary Flying Training Schools in India began the conversion  to PT-26A and PT-26B Cornell in July 1944.  An Indian logbook summary is below.

Summaries from RAF & RCAF log books:
No.3 British Flying Training School, Miami, Oklahoma.
November 1941 to April 1942.
Primary stage on Fairchild PT-19A, Nov 4/41 to Jan16/42.
Day    -   35.16 dual and 48.19 solo.
Night - 1.01 dual and 0.59 solo.
Basic stage on Vultee BT-13A, Jan 26 to Mar 14/42.
Day   -   22.29 dual and 32.06 solo.
Night - 3.40 dual and 1.20 solo.
Advanced stage on North American AT-6A, Mar 17 to Apr 30/42.
Day   -   18.10 dual and 26.37 solo.
Night - 4.23 dual and 4.23 solo.

BT-13As retired and replaced by additional AT-6 from November 1942.
 
March to September 1943.
Primary stage of Fairchild PT-19A
April 1 to May 22, 1943.
Day   -   30.37 dual and 35.56 solo.
Night - 3.32 dual and 0.30 solo.
Advanced stage on AT-6A
May 31 to September 24, 1943.
Day   -    60.51 dual and 49.14 solo.
Night -  11.42 dual and 9.19 solo. 
(BT-13A retired and replaced by additional AT-6 from November 1942.)

No.32 Elementary Flying Training School, Bowden, Alberta.
September 21 to November 11, 1943.
Fairchild PT-26 and PT-26A Cornell.
Total Dual Cornell - 35.50.
     "     Solo Cornell - 28.35.
 Instrument Flying - 7.10.
Dual Navigation     -  4.10.
Solo Navigation     -  4.30.
Night Flying Dual   -  4.15.
Night Flying Solo   -  0.50.

No.28 Elementary Flying Training School, Mount Hampden, Southern Rhodesia.
April 16 to June 21, 1945.
Day   -  39.10 dual and 35.10 solo.
Night -  4.00 dual and 1.00 solo.
Instrument Flying - 8.00. (plus 13 hours Link Training)

No.2 Elementary Flying Training School, Jodhpur, India.
March 20 to June 5, 1945.
Day   -  45.05 Dual and 35.35 solo.
Night - 1.00 Dual.
Instrument Flying - 8.30.

Hope this helps, Tony Broadhurst. '