Re: Auto Fuel in Continental W670-6A

Steve Link · Post by **Steve Link** » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:50 am

'I would like to know the same thing about the Continental W670-6A I have in the PT-23….Anyone running auto gas in them? As I said, "Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you." If you aren't using auto fuel in your Warner, or can't put me onto someone who does or has, no need to respond, thanks.

From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lowea1@...
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 8:18 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fairchildclub] Auto Fuel in WarnersAnybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you. Petersen STC's are available for my 24W and Warner 165 combination. I am contemplating using a mixture of 75% non-oxygenated (zero alcohol) premium auto fuel, and 25% 100LL avgas. This combination will have the same amount of lead contained in 80/87, the recommended fuel (proper valve seat lube), and be unlikely to have less than the 73 octane minimum specified for the engine. Thanks.

'

Fritz Mehrer · Post by **Fritz Mehrer** » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:39 pm

'Saving a few dollars on fuel is not like paying for a major overhaul…. From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Link
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 10:50 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] RE: Auto Fuel in Continental W670-6A

I would like to know the same thing about the Continental W670-6A I have in the PT-23….Anyone running auto gas in them? As I said, "Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you." If you aren't using auto fuel in your Warner, or can't put me onto someone who does or has, no need to respond, thanks.

From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lowea1@...
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 8:18 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fairchildclub] Auto Fuel in WarnersAnybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you. Petersen STC's are available for my 24W and Warner 165 combination. I am contemplating using a mixture of 75% non-oxygenated (zero alcohol) premium auto fuel, and 25% 100LL avgas. This combination will have the same amount of lead contained in 80/87, the recommended fuel (proper valve seat lube), and be unlikely to have less than the 73 octane minimum specified for the engine. Thanks.

'

Mike Danielle · Post by **Mike Danielle** » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:24 pm

' I’ve been watching this thread awhile and kept my mouth shut because a lot of people have strong opinions. The Peterson STC for MOGAS usually specifies using 100LL every fourth fillup or mixing 25% LL each tank to keep the valve seats happy. If you talk to those guys they’ll explain what “lead” does in fuel – it keeps the exhaust valve seats from eroding by depositing soft lead compounds between the exhaust valve and its seat to prevent erosion. That’s the “lubrication” everyone talks about. Has nothing to do with sticking valve guides. What happens is the hot exhaust gasses causes “micro” welding of the valve to the seat and the constant opening and closing of the valve pulls little pieces of the seat away. Google “valve seat recession” and you’ll find out why lead was introduced into gasoline to begin with. Autos are getting by without lead nowadays because they all have stellite valve seats that are hard enough to resist heat erosion and recession. My Ranger was rebuilt by Antique Aero Engines and stellite seats were installed so I could use mogas if I wanted to. But it isn’t available on my field and trucking it to the airport makes the savings not worth it – at least to me. The engine only requires 87 octane. I had a friend who ran his Continental 670 (installed in an experimental aircraft) very nicely with MOGAS. There could be problems with the lower vapor pressure with that fuel so make sure your fuel lines are kept cool. But adding that tankful of LL every now in then should preclude any valve issues because it has way more lead than needed to keep the exhaust valve seats from eroding. No flames, please. Do your own research. Ranger Mike From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Link
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 10:50 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] RE: Auto Fuel in Continental W670-6A I would like to know the same thing about the Continental W670-6A I have in the PT-23….Anyone running auto gas in them? As I said, "Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you." If you aren't using auto fuel in your Warner, or can't put me onto someone who does or has, no need to respond, thanks.

From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lowea1@...
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 8:18 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fairchildclub] Auto Fuel in Warners Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you. Petersen STC's are available for my 24W and Warner 165 combination. I am contemplating using a mixture of 75% non-oxygenated (zero alcohol) premium auto fuel, and 25% 100LL avgas. This combination will have the same amount of lead contained in 80/87, the recommended fuel (proper valve seat lube), and be unlikely to have less than the 73 octane minimum specified for the engine. Thanks.

'

Curt Kinchen · Post by **Curt Kinchen** » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:07 pm

'No flame Mike, but what you speak of, valve seat wear or the lack thereof, was a fallout of the addition of lead to gasoline. It was originally added to boost the octane and prevent knocking. That's why "ethyl" gas became synonymous with premium gasoline, the addition of tetra ethyl lead.

On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Mike Danielle wrote:

I’ve been watching this thread awhile and kept my mouth shut because a lot of people have strong opinions. The Peterson STC for MOGAS usually specifies using 100LL every fourth fillup or mixing 25% LL each tank to keep the valve seats happy. If you talk to those guys they’ll explain what “lead” does in fuel – it keeps the exhaust valve seats from eroding by depositing soft lead compounds between the exhaust valve and its seat to prevent erosion. That’s the “lubrication” everyone talks about. Has nothing to do with sticking valve guides. What happens is the hot exhaust gasses causes “micro” welding of the valve to the seat and the constant opening and closing of the valve pulls little pieces of the seat away. Google “valve seat recession” and you’ll find out why lead was introduced into gasoline to begin with. Autos are getting by without lead nowadays because they all have stellite valve seats that are hard enough to resist heat erosion and recession. My Ranger was rebuilt by Antique Aero Engines and stellite seats were installed so I could use mogas if I wanted to. But it isn’t available on my field and trucking it to the airport makes the savings not worth it – at least to me. The engine only requires 87 octane. I had a friend who ran his Continental 670 (installed in an experimental aircraft) very nicely with MOGAS. There could be problems with the lower vapor pressure with that fuel so make sure your fuel lines are kept cool. But adding that tankful of LL every now in then should preclude any valve issues because it has way more lead than needed to keep the exhaust valve seats from eroding. No flames, please. Do your own research. Ranger Mike From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Link
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 10:50 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] RE: Auto Fuel in Continental W670-6A I would like to know the same thing about the Continental W670-6A I have in the PT-23….Anyone running auto gas in them? As I said, "Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you." If you aren't using auto fuel in your Warner, or can't put me onto someone who does or has, no need to respond, thanks.
From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lowea1@...
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 8:18 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fairchildclub] Auto Fuel in Warners Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you. Petersen STC's are available for my 24W and Warner 165 combination. I am contemplating using a mixture of 75% non-oxygenated (zero alcohol) premium auto fuel, and 25% 100LL avgas. This combination will have the same amount of lead contained in 80/87, the recommended fuel (proper valve seat lube), and be unlikely to have less than the 73 octane minimum specified for the engine. Thanks.

--
Curt Kinchen
ptcurt@gmail.com '

Cy Galley · Post by **Cy Galley** » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:19 pm

'Finally, The right answer. No lube just prevents micro-welding between seat and valve face. Hardened seats is the solution. From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Danielle
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 8:24 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] RE: Auto Fuel in Continental W670-6A I’ve been watching this thread awhile and kept my mouth shut because a lot of people have strong opinions. The Peterson STC for MOGAS usually specifies using 100LL every fourth fillup or mixing 25% LL each tank to keep the valve seats happy. If you talk to those guys they’ll explain what “lead” does in fuel – it keeps the exhaust valve seats from eroding by depositing soft lead compounds between the exhaust valve and its seat to prevent erosion. That’s the “lubrication” everyone talks about. Has nothing to do with sticking valve guides. What happens is the hot exhaust gasses causes “micro” welding of the valve to the seat and the constant opening and closing of the valve pulls little pieces of the seat away. Google “valve seat recession” and you’ll find out why lead was introduced into gasoline to begin with. Autos are getting by without lead nowadays because they all have stellite valve seats that are hard enough to resist heat erosion and recession. My Ranger was rebuilt by Antique Aero Engines and stellite seats were installed so I could use mogas if I wanted to. But it isn’t available on my field and trucking it to the airport makes the savings not worth it – at least to me. The engine only requires 87 octane. I had a friend who ran his Continental 670 (installed in an experimental aircraft) very nicely with MOGAS. There could be problems with the lower vapor pressure with that fuel so make sure your fuel lines are kept cool. But adding that tankful of LL every now in then should preclude any valve issues because it has way more lead than needed to keep the exhaust valve seats from eroding. No flames, please. Do your own research. Ranger Mike From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Link
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 10:50 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] RE: Auto Fuel in Continental W670-6A I would like to know the same thing about the Continental W670-6A I have in the PT-23….Anyone running auto gas in them? As I said, "Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you." If you aren't using auto fuel in your Warner, or can't put me onto someone who does or has, no need to respond, thanks.

From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lowea1@...
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 8:18 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fairchildclub] Auto Fuel in WarnersAnybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you. Petersen STC's are available for my 24W and Warner 165 combination. I am contemplating using a mixture of 75% non-oxygenated (zero alcohol) premium auto fuel, and 25% 100LL avgas. This combination will have the same amount of lead contained in 80/87, the recommended fuel (proper valve seat lube), and be unlikely to have less than the 73 octane minimum specified for the engine. Thanks.

'

Ben Thuringer · Post by **Ben Thuringer** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:31 pm

'I have a Fairchild 24 with the Continental W670 conversion and the Peterson STC for auto fuel. The engine runs great on mogas, every other tank I do run a blend of 100LL and mogas in it. The funny part is that this engine really starts to protest if I run 100% 100LL. By far, this engine appreciates 91 non oxygenated fuel. I now have this bird on floats, so I am able to fuel up at marina's. Makes a really nice float plane! If you would like more information about the Peterson STC I would be happy to help you.'

tonylowe2 · Post by **tonylowe2** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:41 pm

'
Ben, Thanks for the testimony. Sounds encouraging. How do your plugs look -- a lot less fouling, I bet. Petersen STC here I come! I bet 220 hp really makes a performer out of the 24 -- especially on floats.

I still would like to see an F24 with an Ivchenko AI-14 (220 hp, 260 TO hp), or the Chinese version from the Nanchang CJ-6 (the Housai HS6). They are 9 cylinder, but very close to the same diameter and length as the Warner, and fairly close in weight -- a lot lighter and 4 inches less diameter than the W670. The per cylinder displacement is almost the same as the Warner, but the AI-14 is more "under square" to fit 9 cylinders in that small diameter. I think the Warner cowling could be made to fit, for very little change in appearance. Unfortunately that engine would take things into experimental category -- not a huge problem, though.

The AI-14 is not the Vedeneyev M14P. The M14P is a souped-up development of the AI-14. The two engines have the same displacement (618 cu. in.) and diameter, but the M14P has higher compression, higher speed, etc.

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, wrote:

I have a Fairchild 24 with the Continental W670 conversion and the Peterson STC for auto fuel. The engine runs great on mogas, every other tank I do run a blend of 100LL and mogas in it. The funny part is that this engine really starts to protest if I run 100% 100LL. By far, this engine appreciates 91 non oxygenated fuel. I now have this bird on floats, so I am able to fuel up at marina's. Makes a really nice float plane! If you would like more information about the Peterson STC I would be happy to help you.

'

David · Post by **David** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:06 am

'Do you have information and pictures of your aircraft on floats? Thanks, Dave

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2013, at 6:41 PM, wrote:

Ben, Thanks for the testimony. Sounds encouraging. How do your plugs look -- a lot less fouling, I bet. Petersen STC here I come! I bet 220 hp really makes a performer out of the 24 -- especially on floats.

I still would like to see an F24 with an Ivchenko AI-14 (220 hp, 260 TO hp), or the Chinese version from the Nanchang CJ-6 (the Housai HS6). They are 9 cylinder, but very close to the same diameter and length as the Warner, and fairly close in weight -- a lot lighter and 4 inches less diameter than the W670. The per cylinder displacement is almost the same as the Warner, but the AI-14 is more "under square" to fit 9 cylinders in that small diameter. I think the Warner cowling could be made to fit, for very little change in appearance. Unfortunately that engine would take things into experimental category -- not a huge problem, though.

The AI-14 is not the Vedeneyev M14P. The M14P is a souped-up development of the AI-14. The two engines have the same displacement (618 cu. in.) and diameter, but the M14P has higher compression, higher speed, etc.

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, wrote:

I have a Fairchild 24 with the Continental W670 conversion and the Peterson STC for auto fuel. The engine runs great on mogas, every other tank I do run a blend of 100LL and mogas in it. The funny part is that this engine really starts to protest if I run 100% 100LL. By far, this engine appreciates 91 non oxygenated fuel. I now have this bird on floats, so I am able to fuel up at marina's. Makes a really nice float plane! If you would like more information about the Peterson STC I would be happy to help you.
'