Re: Tailwheel and 145 Input

[mcclurebill@rocketmail.com]

'While new to the forum, and a new 24 owner, I'd like to offer a couple of views.

On the tailwheel issues,I think going to the Scott/Alaska Bushwheel is a really good idea. From past involvement with other antique a/c, there is a desire to stay with original equipment, but when it comes to a/c safety I personally draw the line. I have spoken with an extremely experienced antique a/c aviator who flew the plane I bought 15 years ago, and he whole heartedly agrees that the shimmy problems with the original wheel were too great a risk to the aircraft, and he endorses strongly the change to the more modern unit.

Secondly, I must share someting that could save lives. Recently, I had an inflight failure of my Warner 145. Fortunately, it was over flat farm country, and a freshly harvested soybean field was an excellent landing site. Someone else might not be so lucky.

I have removed the engine and, with difficulty, two cylinders. All the cylinders were "belled-out" when the #5 piston apparently self-destructed. Conn rod is there with wrist pin attached, nothing else. There are pea-gravel sized aluminum chunks throughout the engine. The chunks got caught between conn rods and cylinder skirts (this engine is quite tight in the case). The amount of damage is amazing.

There are issues with some after-market pistons, I do not know if that was involved here.

Investigation, and discussion with the experts, reveals that while the bottom end of this engine is pretty robust, the top not so much. It seems a REALLY good idea to top o'haul this engine at 300-350 hour intervals. Not only for the obvious safety reasons, but you might avoid having your engine destroyed to the point it is not going to be useful again. Not many of these out there.

I realize that many may know this, but maybe some do not. If this had not happened to me in as an area as conducive to a forced landing, the outcome might not have been as fortunate. So, in the interest of flight safety, I pass this along. It is hard to know all the details important in the operation of old aircraft, where the pitfalls may lie.

Merry Christmas to all.'

[Hugh Loewenhardt]

'Bill,Thank you for sharing your experience with the group and especially Warner145 owners and operators. Have you considered having the No. 5 piston debris analyzied to determine its alloy and if it matches original piston specifications? Regarding the belled cylinders: do you know the cause? The reason I ask is because a Warner Service Bulletin exists to replace the orginal,soft cylinder-to-crankcase gaskets with O-rings. The soft gaskets allowed the cylinders to rock on each piston stroke. The O-rings allowed for metal-to-metal fastening of the cylinder base to the crankcase.Does your engine have gaskets or O-rings? There is also an associated bulletin to replace the original cylinder hold down studs with oversize fasteners. The original studs would fail after repeated torquing to compensate for the gaskets relaxing. I have the bulletins and will send you copies if needed. Also, a complete set of applicable Warner Service Bulletins is available from
ESSCO, the aircraft manual people.

Hugh Loewenhardt (860)535-1699, Stonington,Ct

--- On Sun, 12/13/09, mcclurebill@rocketmail.com wrote:
> From: mcclurebill@rocketmail.com
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Tailwheel and 145 Input
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 12:51 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> While new to the forum, and a new 24 owner,
> I'd like to offer a couple of views.
>
>
>
> On the tailwheel issues,I think going to the Scott/Alaska
> Bushwheel is a really good idea. From past involvement with
> other antique a/c, there is a desire to stay with original
> equipment, but when it comes to a/c safety I personally draw
> the line. I have spoken with an extremely experienced
> antique a/c aviator who flew the plane I bought 15 years
> ago, and he whole heartedly agrees that the shimmy problems
> with the original wheel were too great a risk to the
> aircraft, and he endorses strongly the change to the more
> modern unit.
>
>
>
> Secondly, I must share someting that could save lives.
> Recently, I had an inflight failure of my Warner 145.
> Fortunately, it was over flat farm country, and a freshly
> harvested soybean field was an excellent landing site.
> Someone else might not be so lucky.
>
>
>
> I have removed the engine and, with difficulty, two
> cylinders. All the cylinders were "belled-out"
> when the #5 piston apparently self-destructed. Conn rod is
> there with wrist pin attached, nothing else. There are
> pea-gravel sized aluminum chunks throughout the engine. The
> chunks got caught between conn rods and cylinder skirts
> (this engine is quite tight in the case). The amount of
> damage is amazing.
>
>
>
> There are issues with some after-market pistons, I do not
> know if that was involved here.
>
>
>
> Investigation, and discussion with the experts, reveals
> that while the bottom end of this engine is pretty robust,
> the top not so much. It seems a REALLY good idea to top
> o'haul this engine at 300-350 hour intervals. Not only
> for the obvious safety reasons, but you might avoid having
> your engine destroyed to the point it is not going to be
> useful again. Not many of these out there.
>
>
>
> I realize that many may know this, but maybe some do not.
> If this had not happened to me in as an area as conducive to
> a forced landing, the outcome might not have been as
> fortunate. So, in the interest of flight safety, I pass this
> along. It is hard to know all the details important in the
> operation of old aircraft, where the pitfalls may lie.
>
>
>
> Merry Christmas to all.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

'

[mcclurebill@rocketmail.com]

'There were O-Rings installed, and oversize studs. I don't know about the expense of analyzing the piston debris. Enough to deal with already! The usual cryptic logbook entries will make it hard to determine what was installed. As an IA, I can tell you that unintelligible, barely legible entries are the norm. If by design, or otherwise, hard to know.

I can say that in speaking with acknowledged Warner experts, the information came out straight-away: These engines need a top at 300-350 hours. You NEED to know what is being installed in the engine in the way of parts and suppliers. It is not hard to imagine that a high-profile accident could bring down the heavy hand of regulation, so self-policing of this endeavor is a really good idea. One of the ways we can do this is sharing information within a type club. The Feds have even seen the wisdom of this idea.

My two cents worth.

Bill McC

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Hugh Loewenhardt wrote:
>
> Bill,Thank you for sharing your experience with the group and especially Warner145 owners and operators. Have you considered having the No. 5 piston debris analyzied to determine its alloy and if it matches original piston specifications? Regarding the belled cylinders: do you know the cause? The reason I ask is because a Warner Service Bulletin exists to replace the orginal,soft cylinder-to-crankcase gaskets with O-rings. The soft gaskets allowed the cylinders to rock on each piston stroke. The O-rings allowed for metal-to-metal fastening of the cylinder base to the crankcase.Does your engine have gaskets or O-rings? There is also an associated bulletin to replace the original cylinder hold down studs with oversize fasteners. The original studs would fail after repeated torquing to compensate for the gaskets relaxing. I have the bulletins and will send you copies if needed. Also, a complete set of applicable Warner Service Bulletins is available from
> ESSCO, the aircraft manual people.
>
> Hugh Loewenhardt (860)535-1699, Stonington,Ct
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/13/09, mcclurebill@... wrote:
> > From: mcclurebill@...
> > Subject: [fairchildclub] Tailwheel and 145 Input
> > To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 12:51 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > While new to the forum, and a new 24 owner,
> > I'd like to offer a couple of views.
> >
> >
> >
> > On the tailwheel issues,I think going to the Scott/Alaska
> > Bushwheel is a really good idea. From past involvement with
> > other antique a/c, there is a desire to stay with original
> > equipment, but when it comes to a/c safety I personally draw
> > the line. I have spoken with an extremely experienced
> > antique a/c aviator who flew the plane I bought 15 years
> > ago, and he whole heartedly agrees that the shimmy problems
> > with the original wheel were too great a risk to the
> > aircraft, and he endorses strongly the change to the more
> > modern unit.
> >
> >
> >
> > Secondly, I must share someting that could save lives.
> > Recently, I had an inflight failure of my Warner 145.
> > Fortunately, it was over flat farm country, and a freshly
> > harvested soybean field was an excellent landing site.
> > Someone else might not be so lucky.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have removed the engine and, with difficulty, two
> > cylinders. All the cylinders were "belled-out"
> > when the #5 piston apparently self-destructed. Conn rod is
> > there with wrist pin attached, nothing else. There are
> > pea-gravel sized aluminum chunks throughout the engine. The
> > chunks got caught between conn rods and cylinder skirts
> > (this engine is quite tight in the case). The amount of
> > damage is amazing.
> >
> >
> >
> > There are issues with some after-market pistons, I do not
> > know if that was involved here.
> >
> >
> >
> > Investigation, and discussion with the experts, reveals
> > that while the bottom end of this engine is pretty robust,
> > the top not so much. It seems a REALLY good idea to top
> > o'haul this engine at 300-350 hour intervals. Not only
> > for the obvious safety reasons, but you might avoid having
> > your engine destroyed to the point it is not going to be
> > useful again. Not many of these out there.
> >
> >
> >
> > I realize that many may know this, but maybe some do not.
> > If this had not happened to me in as an area as conducive to
> > a forced landing, the outcome might not have been as
> > fortunate. So, in the interest of flight safety, I pass this
> > along. It is hard to know all the details important in the
> > operation of old aircraft, where the pitfalls may lie.
> >
> >
> >
> > Merry Christmas to all.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

'

[hughc8c]

'Bill, With the O-rings and oversize studs in place on subject engine, would you know the cause of the belled cylinders. Is it an abnormal condition or the result of normal wear? Please share your findings or knowledge regarding the belled cylinders. I will listen with rapt attention to details. Thanks, Hugh

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, "mcclurebill@..." wrote:
>
> There were O-Rings installed, and oversize studs. I don't know about the expense of analyzing the piston debris. Enough to deal with already! The usual cryptic logbook entries will make it hard to determine what was installed. As an IA, I can tell you that unintelligible, barely legible entries are the norm. If by design, or otherwise, hard to know.
>
> I can say that in speaking with acknowledged Warner experts, the information came out straight-away: These engines need a top at 300-350 hours. You NEED to know what is being installed in the engine in the way of parts and suppliers. It is not hard to imagine that a high-profile accident could bring down the heavy hand of regulation, so self-policing of this endeavor is a really good idea. One of the ways we can do this is sharing information within a type club. The Feds have even seen the wisdom of this idea.
>
> My two cents worth.
>
> Bill McC
>
> --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Hugh Loewenhardt wrote:
> >
> > Bill,Thank you for sharing your experience with the group and especially Warner145 owners and operators. Have you considered having the No. 5 piston debris analyzied to determine its alloy and if it matches original piston specifications? Regarding the belled cylinders: do you know the cause? The reason I ask is because a Warner Service Bulletin exists to replace the orginal,soft cylinder-to-crankcase gaskets with O-rings. The soft gaskets allowed the cylinders to rock on each piston stroke. The O-rings allowed for metal-to-metal fastening of the cylinder base to the crankcase.Does your engine have gaskets or O-rings? There is also an associated bulletin to replace the original cylinder hold down studs with oversize fasteners. The original studs would fail after repeated torquing to compensate for the gaskets relaxing. I have the bulletins and will send you copies if needed. Also, a complete set of applicable Warner Service Bulletins is available from
> > ESSCO, the aircraft manual people.
> >
> > Hugh Loewenhardt (860)535-1699, Stonington,Ct
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 12/13/09, mcclurebill@ wrote:
> > > From: mcclurebill@
> > > Subject: [fairchildclub] Tailwheel and 145 Input
> > > To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 12:51 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > While new to the forum, and a new 24 owner,
> > > I'd like to offer a couple of views.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On the tailwheel issues,I think going to the Scott/Alaska
> > > Bushwheel is a really good idea. From past involvement with
> > > other antique a/c, there is a desire to stay with original
> > > equipment, but when it comes to a/c safety I personally draw
> > > the line. I have spoken with an extremely experienced
> > > antique a/c aviator who flew the plane I bought 15 years
> > > ago, and he whole heartedly agrees that the shimmy problems
> > > with the original wheel were too great a risk to the
> > > aircraft, and he endorses strongly the change to the more
> > > modern unit.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Secondly, I must share someting that could save lives.
> > > Recently, I had an inflight failure of my Warner 145.
> > > Fortunately, it was over flat farm country, and a freshly
> > > harvested soybean field was an excellent landing site.
> > > Someone else might not be so lucky.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have removed the engine and, with difficulty, two
> > > cylinders. All the cylinders were "belled-out"
> > > when the #5 piston apparently self-destructed. Conn rod is
> > > there with wrist pin attached, nothing else. There are
> > > pea-gravel sized aluminum chunks throughout the engine. The
> > > chunks got caught between conn rods and cylinder skirts
> > > (this engine is quite tight in the case). The amount of
> > > damage is amazing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There are issues with some after-market pistons, I do not
> > > know if that was involved here.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Investigation, and discussion with the experts, reveals
> > > that while the bottom end of this engine is pretty robust,
> > > the top not so much. It seems a REALLY good idea to top
> > > o'haul this engine at 300-350 hour intervals. Not only
> > > for the obvious safety reasons, but you might avoid having
> > > your engine destroyed to the point it is not going to be
> > > useful again. Not many of these out there.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I realize that many may know this, but maybe some do not.
> > > If this had not happened to me in as an area as conducive to
> > > a forced landing, the outcome might not have been as
> > > fortunate. So, in the interest of flight safety, I pass this
> > > along. It is hard to know all the details important in the
> > > operation of old aircraft, where the pitfalls may lie.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Merry Christmas to all.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

'

[mcclurebill@rocketmail.com]

'I guess I wasn't clear: The debris from the disintegrating piston thrashed around like gems in a lapidary bowl, trapping chunks between the conn rods and cylinder skirts. This pushed the skirts out, and also caused additional piston damage in at least one other cylinder. A total mess.

Rough running and surging was first indication something was wrong. Not clear at all how bad this was going to be. Within a minute or two (time estimates unreliable in a situation like this) smoke started coming out from under ring cowl, then shortly smoke began coming into cockpit. At that point I had a likely landing spot sighted, so before matters got worse I decided to shut fuel and mags and land it. Given the amount of internal damage I am amazed it did not seize, but it did not. I "think" it may have been producing a little power up until shutdown, but not a lot.

Again, I am sharing this experience for the safety benefits such knowledge might impart to the group. I think this engine can be operated safely, but not if one thinks it is like a newer flat engine. Also, careful examination of the logs of this engine after the incident reveals that it is not possible to determine what parts were installed during numerous cylinder removals, swap-outs, and the like. Log entries should specify what was done, what parts were used by maunfacturer and part numbers. This frequently does NOT happen. While it is a challenge keeping old "orphan" equipment going with dwindling supplies of parts, one needs to be aware of what risks are being undertaken when questionable sourcing occurs.

Two more cents.

Bill McC

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, "hughc8c" wrote:
>
> Bill, With the O-rings and oversize studs in place on subject engine, would you know the cause of the belled cylinders. Is it an abnormal condition or the result of normal wear? Please share your findings or knowledge regarding the belled cylinders. I will listen with rapt attention to details. Thanks, Hugh
>
> --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, "mcclurebill@" wrote:
> >
> > There were O-Rings installed, and oversize studs. I don't know about the expense of analyzing the piston debris. Enough to deal with already! The usual cryptic logbook entries will make it hard to determine what was installed. As an IA, I can tell you that unintelligible, barely legible entries are the norm. If by design, or otherwise, hard to know.
> >
> > I can say that in speaking with acknowledged Warner experts, the information came out straight-away: These engines need a top at 300-350 hours. You NEED to know what is being installed in the engine in the way of parts and suppliers. It is not hard to imagine that a high-profile accident could bring down the heavy hand of regulation, so self-policing of this endeavor is a really good idea. One of the ways we can do this is sharing information within a type club. The Feds have even seen the wisdom of this idea.
> >
> > My two cents worth.
> >
> > Bill McC
> >
> > --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Hugh Loewenhardt wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,Thank you for sharing your experience with the group and especially Warner145 owners and operators. Have you considered having the No. 5 piston debris analyzied to determine its alloy and if it matches original piston specifications? Regarding the belled cylinders: do you know the cause? The reason I ask is because a Warner Service Bulletin exists to replace the orginal,soft cylinder-to-crankcase gaskets with O-rings. The soft gaskets allowed the cylinders to rock on each piston stroke. The O-rings allowed for metal-to-metal fastening of the cylinder base to the crankcase.Does your engine have gaskets or O-rings? There is also an associated bulletin to replace the original cylinder hold down studs with oversize fasteners. The original studs would fail after repeated torquing to compensate for the gaskets relaxing. I have the bulletins and will send you copies if needed. Also, a complete set of applicable Warner Service Bulletins is available from
> > > ESSCO, the aircraft manual people.
> > >
> > > Hugh Loewenhardt (860)535-1699, Stonington,Ct
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 12/13/09, mcclurebill@ wrote:
> > > > From: mcclurebill@
> > > > Subject: [fairchildclub] Tailwheel and 145 Input
> > > > To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 12:51 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > While new to the forum, and a new 24 owner,
> > > > I'd like to offer a couple of views.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On the tailwheel issues,I think going to the Scott/Alaska
> > > > Bushwheel is a really good idea. From past involvement with
> > > > other antique a/c, there is a desire to stay with original
> > > > equipment, but when it comes to a/c safety I personally draw
> > > > the line. I have spoken with an extremely experienced
> > > > antique a/c aviator who flew the plane I bought 15 years
> > > > ago, and he whole heartedly agrees that the shimmy problems
> > > > with the original wheel were too great a risk to the
> > > > aircraft, and he endorses strongly the change to the more
> > > > modern unit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Secondly, I must share someting that could save lives.
> > > > Recently, I had an inflight failure of my Warner 145.
> > > > Fortunately, it was over flat farm country, and a freshly
> > > > harvested soybean field was an excellent landing site.
> > > > Someone else might not be so lucky.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have removed the engine and, with difficulty, two
> > > > cylinders. All the cylinders were "belled-out"
> > > > when the #5 piston apparently self-destructed. Conn rod is
> > > > there with wrist pin attached, nothing else. There are
> > > > pea-gravel sized aluminum chunks throughout the engine. The
> > > > chunks got caught between conn rods and cylinder skirts
> > > > (this engine is quite tight in the case). The amount of
> > > > damage is amazing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There are issues with some after-market pistons, I do not
> > > > know if that was involved here.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Investigation, and discussion with the experts, reveals
> > > > that while the bottom end of this engine is pretty robust,
> > > > the top not so much. It seems a REALLY good idea to top
> > > > o'haul this engine at 300-350 hour intervals. Not only
> > > > for the obvious safety reasons, but you might avoid having
> > > > your engine destroyed to the point it is not going to be
> > > > useful again. Not many of these out there.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I realize that many may know this, but maybe some do not.
> > > > If this had not happened to me in as an area as conducive to
> > > > a forced landing, the outcome might not have been as
> > > > fortunate. So, in the interest of flight safety, I pass this
> > > > along. It is hard to know all the details important in the
> > > > operation of old aircraft, where the pitfalls may lie.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Merry Christmas to all.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

'