Re: Researching the history of a specific F24

Airy-Hugues Millet · Post by **Airy-Hugues Millet** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 12:06 pm

'Hy Johann,
Hy all!

As I just read that you got pictures of real mediterranean camo paint scheme
of F24, I will be very interested in getting this kind of scan!

Effectively our F-AZCI in painted under "supposed" medeiterranean camo with
middlestone + dark earth camo and Azure blue underwings...but it is very
hard to get original tunes....as far as our F24 is painted with gloss paint
which gives a different tune to colors...not as original matt colors (but it
is harder to keep a matt paint clean than a gloss one...and even the
airshows' common public seems to prefers shinny planes than original
matt...(even if I really like most of british spitfires and hurricanes with
really original paints!)
And even when looking at specialized website or asking people, nobody remind
clearly the paint original tune!!!
(just by looking at very "professionnal" model kit dealer having color
charts with accordance between brands...its amazing to see some tunes
differences looking green for some of them and brown for others!
5As we have to remarks that US colors could have the same name as RAF
colors, but not having the same tune!!)

By the way..if any body has any advice about RAF s/n: KK380, we would be
very pleased to ear from her! (construction number 998, ex-USAAF 44-83037,
beeing registered in France in 1948 by Louis Breguet himself as a private
plane....but we don't have any idea from where or whom it was purchased?
...north africa?? (like south africans?)

Airy-H. MILLET

http://nostalgair.free.fr/

>Thanks guys (Airy-H & John) - I appreciate the info that has been shared
>so far. I'm getting quite into the mechanisms of this, even though it might
>have started off as a coincidental interest, and I'm starting to appreciate
>why the Argus had/has such an avid fan club - they are great!
>
>I looked at the pics on nostalgair on Friday, and downloaded & printed the

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Airy-Hugues Millet · Post by **Airy-Hugues Millet** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 12:40 pm

'Hy Jim!

I am not fully sure of what I am going to write here, but are you sure your
F24 is an Argus III...or an Argus II, with Warner engine...as many people
are saying that there were no Ranger engine powered's F24 before 1944...but
your 1943 USAAF number could be a governmental order of 1943's end, and then
the F24 could be delivered effectively in 1944...I am very interested about
getting information about this kind of "details"...building an history!

About restoration of F-AZCI....it was nearly never "restored" since 1948 or
1963 (having doubts of the planes' life during this period, its flying since
the 80's just as it is today!

And at that time it was based on an other french preservation association!
It was used in two movies at least (french TV-movies/comedy)during the
80's....so it should had been recovered during the 70's...in the few
documents we got with it we learned that the engine last overhaul should had
been in 1963....but we recently changed cylinders, overhaul generator and
starter...parts by parts we are overhauling the complete plane (this winter
we would like to get a tailwheel adaptor kit for actual tires for example!)
(We checked instruments too, as well as propeller, shock absorbers,
brakes...etc....and one more time thanks to Bill for them!!)

Normally in coming weeks or months we will try to put detailed pictures of
F-AZCI (around the engine, the tilwheel, boardpanel...converted mostly to
french units instruments..but still having pressure/heat display indicators
of F24 origins...etc!)

Lot of thanks for appreciating our website, we should applause our
association chairman and F24 pilot "Jean-Michel"!!
*clap*clap*clap*

Regards,

Airy

>From: james chybicki
>Reply-To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
>To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Researching the history of a specific F24
>Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:16:07 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Hi Airy-Hugues-
>I am rebuilding ArgusIII RAF S/N HB-690
>USAAF # 43-19464.
>Love the pictures of your plane.
>I can use any extra parts, pictures of the rebuild,
>history, anything related to the UC-61K.
>Can't wait to see more!
>Keep 'Em Flying
>Jim
>--- Airy-Hugues Millet wrote:
> > Hi Folks!
> >
> > We are flying Argus III RAF s/n KK380 here in
> > France...now registered
> > F-AZCI... construction number 998....this was the
> > second on the list in the
> > USAAF 1944's numbers, being USAAF 44-83037!
> > And we are building the history of this plane with
> > thanks to Karl Saenger,
> > and some other contacts I took recently in Great
> > Britain.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Airy-H. MILLET
> >
> > let's have a look at http://nostalgair.free.fr/
> >
> > (english version will come soon, but you don't need
> > to speak french to look
> > at pictures!!)
> >
> >
> > >From: "John Berendt"
> > >Reply-To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> > >To:
> > >Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Researching the
> > history of a specific F24
> > >Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:54:50 -0500
> > >
> > >Johann van Reenen
> > >
> > >The F24 in question was built in the last group of
> > 306 aircaft for the RAF.
> > >It was number 275 in that group and probly carried
> > the USAAF serial no
> > >44-83194 The USAAF records will show when it was
> > delivered from the
> > >factory, when it arrived at the port of departure
> > and when it left the U.
> > >S.
> > >This would have been in late 1944 or early 1945.
> > If you want to contract
> > >me
> > >a fchld@rconnect.com
> > >
> > >John Berendt
> > >Fairchild Club
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Johann van Reenen"
> >
> > >To:
> > >Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 6:00 AM
> > >Subject: [fairchildclub] Researching the history of
> > a specific F24
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi folks
> > > >
> > > > Not being an expert in these matters, I took the
> > liberty of making
> > > > this request through the forum. Any ideas or
> > suggestions from members
> > > > with an interest in and knowledge of aviation
> > history and research
> > > > methods will be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > I am building a 1 : 4.8 scale radio-control
> > model of the F24R Argus,
> > > > and need historical info (from birth to around
> > 1965)on the specific
> > > > plane that I'm replicating. Here's what I have:
> > > >
> > > > She was one of the US/RAF Lend-lease planes,
> > with RAF s/n KK537. Any
> > > > RAF service details here will be excellent. Her
> > "sister" plane was
> > > > KK410, last known to be in Turin, Italy.
> > Airframe no 1155, Ranger L-
> > > > 440-7 engine no R030521 (unsure if its the
> > original engine, but I'd
> > > > think so.) Not sure when & how she landed in
> > South Africa. Flew in
> > > > civilian guise as ZS-CDO until a mishap in 1965,
> > was grounded, and
> > > > bought in 1969. Restoration was completed around
> > 1973, and she was re-
> > > > registered as ZS-BAH. Final flight in 1985.
> > Unfortunately whichever
> > > > logbooks, etc. that was in the plane at the time
> > of the crash, was
> > > > either destroyed or lost. I'm looking for
> > details prior to 1965,
> > > > primarily the pre-South Africa days, as the
> > South Africa stuff I will
> > > > eventually be able to piece together here, I
> > hope.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Johann
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> > to:
> > > > fairchildclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>_________________________________________________________________
> > Affichez, modifiez et partagez gratuitement vos
> > photos en ligne:
> > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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tonyb42uk · Post by **tonyb42uk** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 2:30 pm

'Johaan,
I do not think KK537 ever came to the UK. To be certain I would
need to look at the USAAF and RAF record cards, but all indications
I have are that KK537 was one of 196 Argus IIs delivered to the
Mediteranean,, Middle East and N.W. Africa. A further 30 went to
India and the remaining 80 delivered to the UK.

"KK" is just the prefix to the serial no. and does not in itself
indicate the unit at which it served. If it did, the prefix would
need to be changed on the aircraft's transfer to another unit. The
Squadron code letters, such as those allocated to No.15 Operational
Training Unit, are an entirely different thing.

Perhaps the easiest way to illustrate this are these delivery
details of RAF Argus III's transcribed from the Air-Britain
Publication "The British Air Commission and Lend-Lease" by K.J.
Meekcoms.

116 Argus II with RAF serials HB644-758, HB760.
USAAF serials: 43-14918 to 43-15032.

77 to UK: HB650-669; HB676-695; HB705-724; HB742-758.
13 to MAAF:
5 to Middle East: HB696-698; HB703 & HB704.
8 to North West Africa: HB735-741; HB760.
26 to India: HB644-649; HB670-675; HB699-702; HB725-734.

190 Argus III with RAF serials KK379-568.
USAAF serials: 44-83036 to 44-83225.

3 to UK: KK379-381.
183 to MAAF: KK386-568.
4 to India: KK382-385.

When contacting the AFHRA at Maxwell AFB you will need to quote the
relevant USAAF serial which is 44-83194. The RAF identity KK537 may
be unknown to them.

I would be very interested in the photo of KK410 at Paine Field as
the only photos I have seen of Argus in Olive Drab were Fairchild
publicity shots. And I would be most grateful for some pics of ZS-
BAH/ZS-CDO.

Tony

--- In fairchildclub@y..., johann_van_reenen@c... wrote:
>
> Tony
>
> Thanks a million - your info is invaluable! Does this mean that
the info
> that I have on the KK being the 15 OTU (Harwell) "Squadron code"
might not
> necessarily have been correct? I do concur with the North Africa
bit - it
> agrees with notes that I do have.
>
> Yea, it's interesting about the missing 10 years until '56, isn't
it? It's
> not too serious though - I at least know that it was here
somewhere.
>
> I saw the Fayid pics of KK549. Inteetrsting to note the paint
scheme, and
> then also what looks like RAF camouflage. I have a very old black
& white
> photo of KK410 taken at Payne Field near Cairo, Egypt in 1946,
where the
> paint scheme is a uniform scheme - probably olive drab, instead of
camo,
> which is how KK537 was eventually redone. I have both b&w pics of
KK537
> after the rebuild, (one where she's sitting on a grass field
somewhere with
> what was then the SA Air Force Museum's flying Fieseler Storch,
which I
> think has now been grounded.) and also lots of colour pics. I also
have a
> few pics of her when she was alive as ZS-CDO, one of which is
where she was
> grounded in 1965 after a port undercariage collapse. Also of ZS-
CEW's fin &
> rudder, where the silver dope was in the process of being
stripped, showing
> the Olive Drab & RAF fin flash underneath. There's a large B&W
showing the
> instrument layout (not original - I think it's after rebuilding)
as well.
>
> Lots of colour pics covering the rebuild process. I don't know if
any of
> this is of any interest to you, or anybody else in the Fairchild
rebuilding
> / aviation history areas for that matter, but if anybody wants to
have the
> files, let me know - I will gladly supply.
>
> Don't worry too much about the post-war history - like you say,
the South
> African records have mostly disappeared. I'm even battling a bit
to obtain
> a copy of the final accident report from 1985 - that's not even
that long
> ago. It's the birth to South Africa bit that has really been
missing, and
> that has been of interest to me. I will make contact with the USAAF
> Research people - thanks for the info.
>
> I'd better do some work - it's been far more interesting doing
this, but
> I'd better play some catch-up for an hour or so.
>
> Johann

'

tonyb42uk · Post by **tonyb42uk** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:17 pm

'Airey-Hugues,

If you have read my reply posted this evening to Johaan you will see
I have transcribed some delivery details from the Air-Britain
reference book on Lend-Lease aircraft.

Your KK380 is recorded delivered as one of those delivered to the
UK. Checking against the "KA100 to KZ999" serials register which
contains a brief transcrption of the RAF record card as follows:

"KK380 ATA Retd to US 6.6.47."

ATA was the Air Transport Auxiliary. This was the wartime
organisation responsible for the delivery of new and repaired
aircraft from the factories and repair depots to operational units
within the UK. It was manned by professional and experienced
amateur pilots who were for various reasons not required for
military service and included a number of well known lady pilots.
All three marks of Fairchild Argus were widely used by the ATA for
taxy and pilot ferry duties. If for instance, two Spitfires were
delivered to Biggin Hill from the Castle Bromwich factory, perhaps
an Argus would arrive at Biggin to pick up the two ferry pilots and
return them to their base at White Waltham. If a larger number of
pilots needed picking up an Avro Anson would probably have been used.

As KK380 was based in the UK it is possible that the record card or
some other source may contain some further useful details.

"Retd to US" does not mean returned to the USA. KK380 along with
many other surviving Argus were handed back to an appropriate US
govenment agency who subsequently sold them to suitable customers
and transferred a few to the newly reconstituted allied air forces
of Europe.

Most interesting that the initial civil owner was Louis Breguet --
how long did he keep her?

Tony

--- In fairchildclub@y..., "Airy-Hugues Millet"
wrote:

>
> By the way..if any body has any advice about RAF s/n: KK380, we

would be

> very pleased to ear from her! (construction number 998, ex-USAAF

44-83037,

> beeing registered in France in 1948 by Louis Breguet himself as a

private

> plane....but we don't have any idea from where or whom it was

purchased?

> ...north africa?? (like south africans?)
>
> Airy-H. MILLET
>
> http://nostalgair.free.fr/
>

'

Airy-Hugues Millet · Post by **Airy-Hugues Millet** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:52 pm

'Hy all!

Today I am an happy man!
I just received THA document I was looking for!

I thaks a lot you Tony for information about ATA!!

But in fact KK380 does serves only 10 days in ATA!!!...before being affected
to a repair workshop...to be repaired....already damaged after 10 days in
great britain in september 1944....what a pity!
(its amazing..what I got§)

..I got the copy of the original "RAF record card", thanks to Peter ELLIOTT
from the RAF museum of HENDON....directly from RAF archives...

Then I discover that this plane spent her life in several storage centers...

And I had doubt about the line stamped "Home Census in March 1946"..but I
did supposed that it was returned to USAAF authorities...what you seems to
confirm in your today's answer!!

And even if other informations seems not to be guaranted by the RAF..the
record card has still many other recorded informations...as for the 5 months
use by a french company before returning to a US unit being transfered in
"Oberpfaffinghaft"...as far I could read (hardly readable!)...seems to be in
Germany...for storage again!!

...and Jean-Michel Courtot (the F24 pilot and owner), just sent me an e-mail
with copy of the earlier postwar register on which I could read more than 20
F24 serial number (almost all having USAAF and RAF numbers too..being Argus
I,II or III)...

I think you should be able to have a look at links and/or scans in coming
weeks...

...now it will much harder to go hunting for original log books!!!

And for the Louis Breguet F24 property....for instance he should be the
longest owner in time as he registered her in 1948, and owned her until the
60's....as written on french register!!

Great to ear from you!!

Airy

>
>If you have read my reply posted this evening to Johaan you will see
>I have transcribed some delivery details from the Air-Britain
>reference book on Lend-Lease aircraft.
>
>Your KK380 is recorded delivered as one of those delivered to the
>UK. Checking against the "KA100 to KZ999" serials register which
>contains a brief transcrption of the RAF record card as follows:
>
>"KK380 ATA Retd to US 6.6.47."
>
>ATA was the Air Transport Auxiliary. This was the wartime
>organisation responsible for the delivery of new and repaired
>aircraft from the factories and repair depots to operational units
>within the UK. It was manned by professional and experienced
>amateur pilots who were for various reasons not required for
>military service and included a number of well known lady pilots.
>All three marks of Fairchild Argus were widely used by the ATA for
>taxy and pilot ferry duties. If for instance, two Spitfires were
>delivered to Biggin Hill from the Castle Bromwich factory, perhaps
>an Argus would arrive at Biggin to pick up the two ferry pilots and
>return them to their base at White Waltham. If a larger number of
>pilots needed picking up an Avro Anson would probably have been used.
>
>As KK380 was based in the UK it is possible that the record card or
>some other source may contain some further useful details.
>
>"Retd to US" does not mean returned to the USA. KK380 along with
>many other surviving Argus were handed back to an appropriate US
>govenment agency who subsequently sold them to suitable customers
>and transferred a few to the newly reconstituted allied air forces
>of Europe.
>
>Most interesting that the initial civil owner was Louis Breguet --
>how long did he keep her?

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