Re: PT-19B Electrical system

[pt19b2001]

'I am in the process of installing an electrical system in my PT. I
finally found the original type Generator for installation. ( I went
this route so I could use the hand crank starter ) But now I'm having
a hard time finding a compatible voltage regulator 28V 15A. the best
I could find was a automotive type 28V 10A. All of the manufactures
list them by part number which does not help me much. Any help would
be much appreciated. By the way my dad owns the other F-45. I think
that there are only two flying, my dads and the one in Idaho. I
posted photos in the photos area of the club site.


Thane Riffle'

[marge&john]

'Thane,

unless you are going to run alot of radio gear the 10 amp should work. You
are still starting the PT by hand.

John Berendt

----- Original Message -----
From: "pt19b2001"
To:
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 1:12 PM
Subject: [fairchildclub] PT-19B Electrical system


> I am in the process of installing an electrical system in my PT. I
> finally found the original type Generator for installation. ( I went
> this route so I could use the hand crank starter ) But now I'm having
> a hard time finding a compatible voltage regulator 28V 15A. the best
> I could find was a automotive type 28V 10A. All of the manufactures
> list them by part number which does not help me much. Any help would
> be much appreciated. By the way my dad owns the other F-45. I think
> that there are only two flying, my dads and the one in Idaho. I
> posted photos in the photos area of the club site.
>
>
> Thane Riffle
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> fairchildclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

'

[ranger440c5]

'Thane,
Try Zeftronics 1-800-362-8985. I know they have a generator
controller ( I call it a controller as voltage regulation is a third
of its function, the rest being reverse current and overload
protection) for 12V/15A type "A" circuit perhaps they have a 28V unit
as well. The problem is they will be type A circuit. What gen. you
using? Fairchild/Champion or Eclipse? Fairchild unit is type A and
Eclpise is type B. Both units have isolated leads and therefore be
cleverly dealt with. The skinny is your quandry can be solved but
there is a questionable legal manipulation involved as none of this
is approved. Good luck.

--- In fairchildclub@y..., "pt19b2001" wrote:
> I am in the process of installing an electrical system in my PT. I
> finally found the original type Generator for installation. ( I
went
> this route so I could use the hand crank starter ) But now I'm
having
> a hard time finding a compatible voltage regulator 28V 15A. the
best
> I could find was a automotive type 28V 10A. All of the manufactures
> list them by part number which does not help me much. Any help
would
> be much appreciated. By the way my dad owns the other F-45. I think
> that there are only two flying, my dads and the one in Idaho. I
> posted photos in the photos area of the club site.
>
>
> Thane Riffle

'

[pt19b2001]

'John,

Ya still starting by hand. people want to much money for an
electrical starter. The ranger starts easy 2 to 3 blades. someday I
may have to install one, alot of airports don't like the idea of
having no one in the airplane when starting. But I do set the brakes
and chock it.

Thane Riffle

--- In fairchildclub@y..., "marge&john" wrote:
> Thane,
>
> unless you are going to run alot of radio gear the 10 amp should
work. You
> are still starting the PT by hand.
>
> John Berendt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pt19b2001"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 1:12 PM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] PT-19B Electrical system
>
>
> > I am in the process of installing an electrical system in my PT. I
> > finally found the original type Generator for installation. ( I
went
> > this route so I could use the hand crank starter ) But now I'm
having
> > a hard time finding a compatible voltage regulator 28V 15A. the
best
> > I could find was a automotive type 28V 10A. All of the
manufactures
> > list them by part number which does not help me much. Any help
would
> > be much appreciated. By the way my dad owns the other F-45. I
think
> > that there are only two flying, my dads and the one in Idaho. I
> > posted photos in the photos area of the club site.
> >
> >
> > Thane Riffle
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > fairchildclub-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

'

[pt19b2001]

'Is there a way to tell the difference between "A" circuit and "B" by
just looking at the generator?

Thane Riffle


-- In fairchildclub@y..., "ranger440c5" wrote:

> Thane,
> Try Zeftronics 1-800-362-8985. I know they have a generator
> controller ( I call it a controller as voltage regulation is a third
> of its function, the rest being reverse current and overload
> protection) for 12V/15A type "A" circuit perhaps they have a 28V

unit

> as well. The problem is they will be type A circuit. What gen. you
> using? Fairchild/Champion or Eclipse? Fairchild unit is type A and
> Eclpise is type B. Both units have isolated leads and therefore be
> cleverly dealt with. The skinny is your quandry can be solved but
> there is a questionable legal manipulation involved as none of this
> is approved. Good luck.
>
> --- In fairchildclub@y..., "pt19b2001" wrote:
> > I am in the process of installing an electrical system in my PT. I
> > finally found the original type Generator for installation. ( I
> went
> > this route so I could use the hand crank starter ) But now I'm
> having
> > a hard time finding a compatible voltage regulator 28V 15A. the
> best
> > I could find was a automotive type 28V 10A. All of the

manufactures

> > list them by part number which does not help me much. Any help
> would
> > be much appreciated. By the way my dad owns the other F-45. I

think

> > that there are only two flying, my dads and the one in Idaho. I
> > posted photos in the photos area of the club site.
> >
> >
> > Thane Riffle

'

[ranger440c5]

'Thane,
HMMMMM... It's easier to group them by manufacturer. Fairchild Na-1,
and nearly all Delco Remy are A circuit. Nearly all Bendix/Eclipse
are of the B variety. Yes the markings can tip you off. The difference
lies in how the fields are controlled. If you can look at the brush
leads and terminals, there are (on our simpler stuff) 2 brushes and
their respective leads, there should also be 2 leads from the fields.
Now most times one of the armature leads is grounded internally and
one is insulated and is the one that pours out the juice. IF THE
GENERATOR FIELD COIL LEAD IS CONNECTED TO THE INSULATED BRUSH INSIDE
THE GENERATOR, THE GENERATOR IS AN "A" TYPE CIRCUIT. IF THE GENERATOR
FIELD COIL LEAD IS CONNECTED TO THE GROUNDED BRUSH INSIDE THE
GENERATOR OR TO THE GENERATOR FRAME, THE GENERATOR IS A "B" TYPE
CIRCUIT.
The big idea here tho' is that A type has the fields fed system
voltage and the regulator controls the field through the ground lead.
Type B has the fields grounded and the regulator controls the power
going TO the fields. Sort of like putting a toggle switch between the
battery and a light bulb (type B), or putting the switch after the
bulb but before the ground or return path(type A).
We have seen type A circuit gens converted to B type externally so
be careful and don't assume anything. Open it up and take a peek. And
for Heaven's sake, flash the fields. Hopefully, you will resolve the
situation and should you come up with a properly matched controller.
You will be rewarded with a reliable power source. Many folks are of
the mind that modern alternators are the way to go but these units
suffer many drawbacks that these ol' CERTIFIED generators addressed
nigh on 50 years ago and are forgotten today by many well intentioned
mechanics.
-- In fairchildclub@y..., "pt19b2001" wrote:

> Is there a way to tell the difference between "A" circuit and "B"

by

> just looking at the generator?
>
> Thane Riffle
>
>
> -- In fairchildclub@y..., "ranger440c5" wrote:
> > Thane,
> > Try Zeftronics 1-800-362-8985. I know they have a generator
> > controller ( I call it a controller as voltage regulation is a

third

> > of its function, the rest being reverse current and overload
> > protection) for 12V/15A type "A" circuit perhaps they have a 28V
> unit
> > as well. The problem is they will be type A circuit. What gen.

you

> > using? Fairchild/Champion or Eclipse? Fairchild unit is type A

and

> > Eclpise is type B. Both units have isolated leads and therefore

be

> > cleverly dealt with. The skinny is your quandry can be solved but
> > there is a questionable legal manipulation involved as none of

this

> > is approved. Good luck.
> >
> > --- In fairchildclub@y..., "pt19b2001" wrote:
> > > I am in the process of installing an electrical system in my

PT. I

> > > finally found the original type Generator for installation. ( I
> > went
> > > this route so I could use the hand crank starter ) But now I'm
> > having
> > > a hard time finding a compatible voltage regulator 28V 15A. the
> > best
> > > I could find was a automotive type 28V 10A. All of the
> manufactures
> > > list them by part number which does not help me much. Any help
> > would
> > > be much appreciated. By the way my dad owns the other F-45. I
> think
> > > that there are only two flying, my dads and the one in Idaho. I
> > > posted photos in the photos area of the club site.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thane Riffle

'

[pt19b2001]

'Looks like this one is a type "B" one of the brush leads and one of
the field leads are connected together to a terminal marked ground
and this lead appears to be attached to the generator frame. The
manufacturer of this generator is Pierson Electrical & Engineering
Corp. type 2411 28.5V 15A still has sticker on it from Kelly AFB.
Which is were my plane was based. I also have a bendix-Eclipse 28V
generator. But no type # on it only MFG's DWG# 112180-1235-1. In the
PT erection and maintance manual it talks about type 1235 generator
installed in the PT-19B. I think thay meant drawing # but not shure.
the one I have looks like it was sitting in water. I think it will
need a rewind. I have never seen another one of of this type, wish I
could find one. You would think they would be all over the place. but
that does not appear to be the case.

Thanks for the help
Thane Riffle

--- In fairchildclub@y..., "ranger440c5" wrote:
> Thane,
> HMMMMM... It's easier to group them by manufacturer. Fairchild Na-
1,
> and nearly all Delco Remy are A circuit. Nearly all Bendix/Eclipse
> are of the B variety. Yes the markings can tip you off. The
difference
> lies in how the fields are controlled. If you can look at the brush
> leads and terminals, there are (on our simpler stuff) 2 brushes and
> their respective leads, there should also be 2 leads from the
fields.
> Now most times one of the armature leads is grounded internally and
> one is insulated and is the one that pours out the juice. IF THE
> GENERATOR FIELD COIL LEAD IS CONNECTED TO THE INSULATED BRUSH
INSIDE
> THE GENERATOR, THE GENERATOR IS AN "A" TYPE CIRCUIT. IF THE
GENERATOR
> FIELD COIL LEAD IS CONNECTED TO THE GROUNDED BRUSH INSIDE THE
> GENERATOR OR TO THE GENERATOR FRAME, THE GENERATOR IS A "B" TYPE
> CIRCUIT.
> The big idea here tho' is that A type has the fields fed system
> voltage and the regulator controls the field through the ground
lead.
> Type B has the fields grounded and the regulator controls the power
> going TO the fields. Sort of like putting a toggle switch between
the
> battery and a light bulb (type B), or putting the switch after the
> bulb but before the ground or return path(type A).
> We have seen type A circuit gens converted to B type externally so
> be careful and don't assume anything. Open it up and take a peek.
And
> for Heaven's sake, flash the fields. Hopefully, you will resolve
the
> situation and should you come up with a properly matched
controller.
> You will be rewarded with a reliable power source. Many folks are
of
> the mind that modern alternators are the way to go but these units
> suffer many drawbacks that these ol' CERTIFIED generators addressed
> nigh on 50 years ago and are forgotten today by many well
intentioned
> mechanics.
> -- In fairchildclub@y..., "pt19b2001" wrote:
> > Is there a way to tell the difference between "A" circuit and "B"
> by
> > just looking at the generator?
> >
> > Thane Riffle
> >
> >
> > -- In fairchildclub@y..., "ranger440c5" wrote:
> > > Thane,
> > > Try Zeftronics 1-800-362-8985. I know they have a generator
> > > controller ( I call it a controller as voltage regulation is a
> third
> > > of its function, the rest being reverse current and overload
> > > protection) for 12V/15A type "A" circuit perhaps they have a
28V
> > unit
> > > as well. The problem is they will be type A circuit. What gen.
> you
> > > using? Fairchild/Champion or Eclipse? Fairchild unit is type A
> and
> > > Eclpise is type B. Both units have isolated leads and therefore
> be
> > > cleverly dealt with. The skinny is your quandry can be solved
but
> > > there is a questionable legal manipulation involved as none of
> this
> > > is approved. Good luck.
> > >
> > > --- In fairchildclub@y..., "pt19b2001" wrote:
> > > > I am in the process of installing an electrical system in my
> PT. I
> > > > finally found the original type Generator for installation. (
I
> > > went
> > > > this route so I could use the hand crank starter ) But now
I'm
> > > having
> > > > a hard time finding a compatible voltage regulator 28V 15A.
the
> > > best
> > > > I could find was a automotive type 28V 10A. All of the
> > manufactures
> > > > list them by part number which does not help me much. Any
help
> > > would
> > > > be much appreciated. By the way my dad owns the other F-45. I
> > think
> > > > that there are only two flying, my dads and the one in Idaho.
I
> > > > posted photos in the photos area of the club site.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thane Riffle

'

[ranger440c5]

'Thane,
Not sure about the Pierson item. How are the terminals marked? F+ A+
A-? How many are there 2 or 3? Check the brush that has the field
tied to it for continuity to frame with a multimeter. While your'e
at it spin the little bugger about 800 rpm in the direction you want
it to turn and check voltage across the 2 brushes +to+,-to-. If
voltage is developed positive, rotation is correct and residual
magnetism is still present. If neg voltage developed(a minus sign on
digital meter, a left side deflection on analog meter) rotation
incorrect. No voltage may signify loss of residual magnetism, fields
need flashing.
The Eclipse you have is a good little gen. Not sure if worth
rebuilding especially since you might have a usable alternative. It
is a type 1235. 30V 15A square head on flange with a 1" dia.cooling
spout on brush end, and has a nice rubber coupling inside the drive
end. Should have a directional arrow on the bearing cap on the brush
end frame(don't trust it). This unit should have only 2 brushes other
wise very similar to 309 type including terminal box on brush
endframe with terminal studs marked A-,A+,&F+. Which tells you that
it's type B circuit as the regulator will be supplying the power to
the fields.The one drawback is it must be force cooled. most others
are self cooled.
There are a couple shops that know these units and they are
available. Let's hear what you come up with.

--- In fairchildclub@y..., "pt19b2001" wrote:
> Looks like this one is a type "B" one of the brush leads and one
of
> the field leads are connected together to a terminal marked ground
> and this lead appears to be attached to the generator frame. The
> manufacturer of this generator is Pierson Electrical & Engineering
> Corp. type 2411 28.5V 15A still has sticker on it from Kelly AFB.
> Which is were my plane was based. I also have a bendix-Eclipse 28V
> generator. But no type # on it only MFG's DWG# 112180-1235-1. In
the
> PT erection and maintance manual it talks about type 1235 generator
> installed in the PT-19B. I think thay meant drawing # but not
shure.
> the one I have looks like it was sitting in water. I think it will
> need a rewind. I have never seen another one of of this type, wish
I
> could find one. You would think they would be all over the place.
but
> that does not appear to be the case.
>
> Thanks for the help
> Thane Riffle
>

'

[pt19b2001]

'The Pierson Gen Terminals are marked GRD, FLD and ARM. The GRD
terminal has on brush and field lead connected to it,the ARM terminal
has one brush lead connected to it and the FLD terminal has one field
lead connected to it. I believe from what you said before that this
is a type "B" circuit? I took it over to a auto electic shop and they
spun it up. They said it worked perfectly. Looks like new inside the
unit. Data plate and arrows mark this unit as left hand rotation. So
now all I need is a GCU. I e-mailed Zeftronics sales three days ago
but still no reply.

Thane Riffle

--- In fairchildclub@y..., "ranger440c5" wrote:
> Thane,
> Not sure about the Pierson item. How are the terminals marked? F+
A+
> A-? How many are there 2 or 3? Check the brush that has the field
> tied to it for continuity to frame with a multimeter. While your'e
> at it spin the little bugger about 800 rpm in the direction you
want
> it to turn and check voltage across the 2 brushes +to+,-to-. If
> voltage is developed positive, rotation is correct and residual
> magnetism is still present. If neg voltage developed(a minus sign
on
> digital meter, a left side deflection on analog meter) rotation
> incorrect. No voltage may signify loss of residual magnetism,
fields
> need flashing.
> The Eclipse you have is a good little gen. Not sure if worth
> rebuilding especially since you might have a usable alternative. It
> is a type 1235. 30V 15A square head on flange with a 1" dia.cooling
> spout on brush end, and has a nice rubber coupling inside the drive
> end. Should have a directional arrow on the bearing cap on the
brush
> end frame(don't trust it). This unit should have only 2 brushes
other
> wise very similar to 309 type including terminal box on brush
> endframe with terminal studs marked A-,A+,&F+. Which tells you that
> it's type B circuit as the regulator will be supplying the power to
> the fields.The one drawback is it must be force cooled. most others
> are self cooled.
> There are a couple shops that know these units and they are
> available. Let's hear what you come up with.
>
> --- In fairchildclub@y..., "pt19b2001" wrote:
> > Looks like this one is a type "B" one of the brush leads and one
> of
> > the field leads are connected together to a terminal marked
ground
> > and this lead appears to be attached to the generator frame. The
> > manufacturer of this generator is Pierson Electrical &
Engineering
> > Corp. type 2411 28.5V 15A still has sticker on it from Kelly AFB.
> > Which is were my plane was based. I also have a bendix-Eclipse
28V
> > generator. But no type # on it only MFG's DWG# 112180-1235-1. In
> the
> > PT erection and maintance manual it talks about type 1235
generator
> > installed in the PT-19B. I think thay meant drawing # but not
> shure.
> > the one I have looks like it was sitting in water. I think it
will
> > need a rewind. I have never seen another one of of this type,
wish
> I
> > could find one. You would think they would be all over the place.
> but
> > that does not appear to be the case.
> >
> > Thanks for the help
> > Thane Riffle
> >

'

[ranger440c5]

'Thane, The big question here is if the gen is mechanically compatible.
It doesn't seem to appear on Ranger approved accessory list. However,
if installed in other than aircraft it could be converted to "A"
circuit and NAPA has a 3 unit GCU that should be compatible.

--- In fairchildclub@y..., "pt19b2001" wrote:
> The Pierson Gen Terminals are marked GRD, FLD and ARM. The GRD
> terminal has on brush and field lead connected to it,the ARM
terminal
> has one brush lead connected to it and the FLD terminal has one
field
> lead connected to it. I believe from what you said before that this
> is a type "B" circuit? I took it over to a auto electic shop and
they
> spun it up. They said it worked perfectly. Looks like new inside
the
> unit. Data plate and arrows mark this unit as left hand rotation.
So
> now all I need is a GCU. I e-mailed Zeftronics sales three days ago
> but still no reply.
>
> Thane Riffle

'