Fairchild Club Forum

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:37 am**

'MF:

Not sure what the initials are but here goes:

While I sense your frustration, you need to speak with the FAA-! While there is NO question about some "junk" being peddled as used aircraft, the impact of putting too much information in an aircraft or pilot log is the "wrath" of certain FAA Inspectors. I am a retired ASI Manager and the quality of folks the FAA hires is clearly lacking-!

I would suggest you also obtain and read the appropriate FAR as it pertains to "continued airworthiness" of Part 23, CAR 3 or other antique or vintage aircraft. The early days of our industry had little regulatory oversight and that we had was with qualified and competent bureaucrats as opposed to those we have employed within the FAA today-!

There is NO "regulatory" requirement to "annual" or conduct an annual inspection unless there is some "intent" for flight in that aircraft. You also need to know that there is NO regulatory requirement to completely rebuild an engine at "Recommended" overhaul intervals unless that aircraft is used in "commercial" service. What most of us do with old vintage and antique aircraft is Part 91 operations NOT FAR Part 135 or 121.

DR

Previous owner F24 N81229
Own/operate: C195 N166VN, C182A N766VN, OTW N34349

Dick Russell, ATP CFII

Nebraska Aviation Hall of Fame
Vietnam Sight-seeing operations 1966-1975

www.Russellaire.com www.councilofchiefs.net www.Hardyaviationins.com

Check six and fly safe...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:51 am**

'A lot of replies, so why don't I throw in my two cents worth?

Unquestionably, the most pertinent observation so far is "you get what you pay for". And yet, there are no guarantees. Whether a spam can or antique, the day you fly off can be the day the molecules decide it is time to let go. Another important point: there is no objective standard to do a "pre-buy" inspection. There is no pre-buy checklist. The inspection is defined by what the buyer asks the inspector to do. Therefore, there cannot be a "failure" to pass a pre-buy. Merely, an opinion is passed to the buyer as to the strengths or weaknesses of the aircraft. It is the buyers decision. Caveat Emptor.

That said, I think there is a real issue in that when a person becomes interested in a particular aircraft type, then it is his responsibility to do due diligence to find out what the problem areas are of that particular type. And, this can we quite difficult to do. If you are lucky, and have access to someone who is familiar, then it may be easier for you. But, with out that it can be difficult. Depending on the type there may be a club than can provide that information. A few years ago I thought about a 310 that was a dead ringer for Sky King's plane. Really liked it, relatively good condition. But, knowing nothing about the type I joined the Twin Cessna Owners Club and bought all their past issues and guides. After investigating that information, I found much that I did not care for, and passed on it. (No offense to those that like them, just my opinion.)

The more limited the numbers of aircraft of a type there may be, the more limited the information that is readily available. In the case of old, unsupported engines such as we are dealing with here, the information necessary largely exists in the heads of some very able individuals. The problem, as I see it, with maintaining some of these older aircraft is passing on that collective body of information.

This is all coming from one that recently had a less than fortunate experience in this area. Still, whether you are buying a 90's vintage Bonanza or an old antique, these things can happen. Don't buy planes if you can't accept that. I DO have a problem with mechanics who really have no expertise in the equipment they are working on, and do what they think is OK with out doing research. Then, the documentation entered in the records is sketchy at best. I think that leads to real problems.

Maybe too long, but my view. The original commenter sounds like he has investigated a/c and found them undesirable, and did not buy them. That's what you are supposed to do. No matter what type a/c I have purchased over the years, I have always had multiple visits to hangar queens the owner thought was immaculate. Goes with the territory.

Bill McClure'

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:03 pm**

'Very well put Bill.

----- Original Message -----
From: mcclurebill@rocketmail.com
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:48 AM
Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: For MF information and frustration reduction

A lot of replies, so why don't I throw in my two cents worth?

Unquestionably, the most pertinent observation so far is "you get what you pay for". And yet, there are no guarantees. Whether a spam can or antique, the day you fly off can be the day the molecules decide it is time to let go. Another important point: there is no objective standard to do a "pre-buy" inspection. There is no pre-buy checklist. The inspection is defined by what the buyer asks the inspector to do. Therefore, there cannot be a "failure" to pass a pre-buy. Merely, an opinion is passed to the buyer as to the strengths or weaknesses of the aircraft. It is the buyers decision. Caveat Emptor.

That said, I think there is a real issue in that when a person becomes interested in a particular aircraft type, then it is his responsibility to do due diligence to find out what the problem areas are of that particular type. And, this can we quite difficult to do. If you are lucky, and have access to someone who is familiar, then it may be easier for you. But, with out that it can be difficult. Depending on the type there may be a club than can provide that information. A few years ago I thought about a 310 that was a dead ringer for Sky King's plane. Really liked it, relatively good condition. But, knowing nothing about the type I joined the Twin Cessna Owners Club and bought all their past issues and guides. After investigating that information, I found much that I did not care for, and passed on it. (No offense to those that like them, just my opinion.)

The more limited the numbers of aircraft of a type there may be, the more limited the information that is readily available. In the case of old, unsupported engines such as we are dealing with here, the information necessary largely exists in the heads of some very able individuals. The problem, as I see it, with maintaining some of these older aircraft is passing on that collective body of information.

This is all coming from one that recently had a less than fortunate experience in this area. Still, whether you are buying a 90's vintage Bonanza or an old antique, these things can happen. Don't buy planes if you can't accept that. I DO have a problem with mechanics who really have no expertise in the equipment they are working on, and do what they think is OK with out doing research. Then, the documentation entered in the records is sketchy at best. I think that leads to real problems.

Maybe too long, but my view. The original commenter sounds like he has investigated a/c and found them undesirable, and did not buy them. That's what you are supposed to do. No matter what type a/c I have purchased over the years, I have always had multiple visits to hangar queens the owner thought was immaculate. Goes with the territory.

Bill McClure

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

'

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:18 pm**

'Buying an old aircraft, is buying an old aircraft! Not a brand new one.

If people don't feel safe to buy something, don't buy it! It's simple.

Even a brand new restored vintage aircraft can suffer problems such as old aircraft! Just because they are original, not modified, flying with their "flying qualities" of the 20's, the 30's, the 40's or post-WWII flying abilities...airfoil profile, engines...

Because machines, as much as human are made with material, anything can happen anytime with material!!

So, when you fly a F24, you should know you are flying a plane designed in the roaring 30's, designed according to knowledge of that era, with engines of that decade, and designed by people (engineers) who learn to draw, learn to fly in the 10's or 20's...(in the best case).

Stearable-unlockable tailwheel on a F24 is something exceptionnal, as some other planes of that decades were still having solid friction tailpads instead of a wheel!! ...but those wheel are known for some shimmy... when things begins to wear.

Flying at 100mph with a 200HP engine at 1900rpm is not something specialy astonishing...many did better since years, even with a fixed-pitch wood prop!

So, if you don't fall in love with "ONE" particular plane, don't buy her!

If you fall in love, you 'll probably forget anything around her, even some small perfectible details to be fixed!

otherwise?

Buy a bunch of parts, or a wrecked plane, and rebuild her as well as you want her to be!

Airy

(who like to learn back how to fly those primitive planes....for instance the oldest I flew was a 1936 biplane type).

To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
From: mcclurebill@rocketmail.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:48:49 +0000
Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: For MF information and frustration reduction

A lot of replies, so why don't I throw in my two cents worth?
(...)

etc...

_________________________________________________________________
Discutez en direct avec vos amis sur Messenger !
http://www.windowslive.fr/messenger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:31 pm**

'"MF" is for Marc Fleming (KSFF). I have been very lucky to have Addison Pemberton as Mentor. Think Oshkosh Grand Champion 2008 Boeing 40C-oldest flying Boeing in the World--Speedmail--Stearman 450--others newer--and has owned two F 24 SS145's. His knowledge, patience, and firm belief in classic aircraft has been Invaluable. I drive vintage cars--63 Bentley S3 (1 of 27) and RR. So the idea of piloting a vehicle that has the capability of letting one down is not a new concept. It's more the people that are presenting an aeroplane as one thing that it is not. I was expecting more of GA people than has been the case. I have now come to the realization that my initial budget is not enough but I am not looking for a show plane but what is called in the automobile world as a "Good Driver". Not a project. Maintenance and repair is certainly expected otherwise I'd drive a Honda. By the way I wonder what some of you that have had some harsher comments drive for cars? lol The Fairchild for me is a passion. Finding one in a reasonable condition that has been fairly presented is the goal. Save your emails telling me I need to buy a Cirrus or Cessna. I know what I want. It's finding it. Thanks however to those that have had constructive comments. mf'

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:44 pm**

'I drive daily vw beetle 1200 standard 1971,

and week-end driver, V12 Jag XJ-S!

)))

To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
From: shadowll@msn.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 21:31:51 +0000
Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: For MF information and frustration reduction

"MF" is for Marc Fleming (KSFF). I have been very lucky to have Addison Pemberton as Mentor. Think Oshkosh Grand Champion 2008 Boeing 40C-oldest flying Boeing in the World--Speedmail--Stearman 450--others newer--and has owned two F 24 SS145's. His knowledge, patience, and firm belief in classic aircraft has been Invaluable. I drive vintage cars--63 Bentley S3 (1 of 27) and RR. So the idea of piloting a vehicle that has the capability of letting one down is not a new concept. It's more the people that are presenting an aeroplane as one thing that it is not. I was expecting more of GA people than has been the case. I have now come to the realization that my initial budget is not enough but I am not looking for a show plane but what is called in the automobile world as a "Good Driver". Not a project. Maintenance and repair is certainly expected otherwise I'd drive a Honda. By the way I wonder what some of you that have had some harsher comments drive for cars? lol The Fairchild for me is a passion. Finding one in a reasonable condition that has been fairly presented is the goal. Save your emails telling me I need to buy a Cirrus or Cessna. I know what I want. It's finding it. Thanks however to those that have had constructive comments. mf

_________________________________________________________________
D?couvrez Windows 7 en 7 secondes?!
http://clk.atdmt.com/FRM/go/181574577/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:35 pm**

'Airplanes weren't all that good when they were new back before the 40's. My
Dad learned to fly in 1929. He took a professional 200 hr course at Meacham
Field at Fort Worth in order to rcv his commercial lic. During this 200 hrs
he averaged a force landing due to engine failure every 10 hrs. Twenty of
them. He use to tell me he got very uncomfortable when he was not flying
over an open pasture.

Jack

Jack Threadgill

1602 Brook Hollow Dr

Bryan, TX 77802

979-779-7155

threadgl@suddenlink.net

-----Original Message-----
From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Airy Millet
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:19 PM
To: fairchildlist
Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] Re: For MF information and frustration
reduction

Buying an old aircraft, is buying an old aircraft! Not a brand new one.

If people don't feel safe to buy something, don't buy it! It's simple.

Even a brand new restored vintage aircraft can suffer problems such as old
aircraft! Just because they are original, not modified, flying with their
"flying qualities" of the 20's, the 30's, the 40's or post-WWII flying
abilities...airfoil profile, engines...

Because machines, as much as human are made with material, anything can
happen anytime with material!!

So, when you fly a F24, you should know you are flying a plane designed in
the roaring 30's, designed according to knowledge of that era, with engines
of that decade, and designed by people (engineers) who learn to draw, learn
to fly in the 10's or 20's...(in the best case).

Stearable-unlockable tailwheel on a F24 is something exceptionnal, as some
other planes of that decades were still having solid friction tailpads
instead of a wheel!! ...but those wheel are known for some shimmy... when
things begins to wear.

Flying at 100mph with a 200HP engine at 1900rpm is not something specialy
astonishing...many did better since years, even with a fixed-pitch wood
prop!

So, if you don't fall in love with "ONE" particular plane, don't buy her!

If you fall in love, you 'll probably forget anything around her, even some
small perfectible details to be fixed!

otherwise?

Buy a bunch of parts, or a wrecked plane, and rebuild her as well as you
want her to be!

Airy

(who like to learn back how to fly those primitive planes....for instance
the oldest I flew was a 1936 biplane type).

To: fairchildclub@ yahoogroups.com
From: mcclurebill@ rocketmail.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:48:49 +0000
Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: For MF information and frustration reduction

A lot of replies, so why don't I throw in my two cents worth?
(...)

etc...

__________________________________________________________
Discutez en direct avec vos amis sur Messenger !
http://www.windowsl ive.fr/messenger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:57 pm**

'Marc,

I know that most of your complaints were based on mis-represented airplanes, but you did mention that you were seeking a Warner Powered Fairchild 24 for around $50,000.00. If Addison Pemberton is your Mentor, then I think you should already understand that in order to purchase a new Warner engine (without a core) you would have to spend about $50,000.00. There are some good Fairchild 24s that can be purchased, but a good one with a fresh Warner SHOULD be priced closer to $100,000.00. During these weak economic times you probably could find a good one for less, but NOT for $50,000.00. For that kind of money, the owner would get more by 'parting it out'. What a horrible thought.

Bob Waldron
1939 Fairchild 24K (NOT for sale)
Webster, MN

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, "p63bentley" wrote:
>
> "MF" is for Marc Fleming (KSFF). I have been very lucky to have Addison Pemberton as Mentor. Think Oshkosh Grand Champion 2008 Boeing 40C-oldest flying Boeing in the World--Speedmail--Stearman 450--others newer--and has owned two F 24 SS145's. His knowledge, patience, and firm belief in classic aircraft has been Invaluable. I drive vintage cars--63 Bentley S3 (1 of 27) and RR. So the idea of piloting a vehicle that has the capability of letting one down is not a new concept. It's more the people that are presenting an aeroplane as one thing that it is not. I was expecting more of GA people than has been the case. I have now come to the realization that my initial budget is not enough but I am not looking for a show plane but what is called in the automobile world as a "Good Driver". Not a project. Maintenance and repair is certainly expected otherwise I'd drive a Honda. By the way I wonder what some of you that have had some harsher comments drive for cars? lol The Fairchild for me is a passion. Finding one in a reasonable condition that has been fairly presented is the goal. Save your emails telling me I need to buy a Cirrus or Cessna. I know what I want. It's finding it. Thanks however to those that have had constructive comments. mf
>

'

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:30 pm**

'Everyone: Thanks to those who have been constructive. Probably shouldn't have vented quite as loudly but there you have it. As I said my budget review after the first five reveals that it (Budget) will have to be increased. However it would be great to find one for sale that was "A good driver" without being a project that was even for sale. That I think is the real frustration. As for Addison he helps me without completely "spoon feeding" and expects I will learn as I go. He also keeps an eye on you to be sure you don't do anything really stupid. That is what a good mentor does. So, sounding like a jackass aside if someone knows of a Standard classification, fabric under the age of 15/20 years (and yes even at that age it could be bad--it's the general idea for the fabric) lower hour Warner 165 for sale I would like to even see it as they truly are a work of art. mf'

Posted: **Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:21 pm**

'The glue wasn't up to modern standards either. I bought a 24 in need of complete rebuilt
about four years ago, but sold the project to continue with my 51 project. What surprised me is
when I got a grip on the horizontal stab and tried to pull the plywood off with my bare hands....it
came apart like it was glued with that stuff you used to make candy apples with at Halloween.
Brittle as hell and no strength. It scares me to think about how many 24's or otherwise might
still be flying with nice looking skins held on by next to nothing.

David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV

----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Threadgill
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] Re: For MF information and frustration reduction

Airplanes weren't all that good when they were new back before the 40's. My
Dad learned to fly in 1929. He took a professional 200 hr course at Meacham
Field at Fort Worth in order to rcv his commercial lic. During this 200 hrs
he averaged a force landing due to engine failure every 10 hrs. Twenty of
them. He use to tell me he got very uncomfortable when he was not flying
over an open pasture.

Jack

Jack Threadgill

1602 Brook Hollow Dr

Bryan, TX 77802

979-779-7155

threadgl@suddenlink.net

-----Original Message-----
From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Airy Millet
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:19 PM
To: fairchildlist
Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] Re: For MF information and frustration
reduction

Buying an old aircraft, is buying an old aircraft! Not a brand new one.

If people don't feel safe to buy something, don't buy it! It's simple.

Even a brand new restored vintage aircraft can suffer problems such as old
aircraft! Just because they are original, not modified, flying with their
"flying qualities" of the 20's, the 30's, the 40's or post-WWII flying
abilities...airfoil profile, engines...

Because machines, as much as human are made with material, anything can
happen anytime with material!!

So, when you fly a F24, you should know you are flying a plane designed in
the roaring 30's, designed according to knowledge of that era, with engines
of that decade, and designed by people (engineers) who learn to draw, learn
to fly in the 10's or 20's...(in the best case).

Stearable-unlockable tailwheel on a F24 is something exceptionnal, as some
other planes of that decades were still having solid friction tailpads
instead of a wheel!! ...but those wheel are known for some shimmy... when
things begins to wear.

Flying at 100mph with a 200HP engine at 1900rpm is not something specialy
astonishing...many did better since years, even with a fixed-pitch wood
prop!

So, if you don't fall in love with "ONE" particular plane, don't buy her!

If you fall in love, you 'll probably forget anything around her, even some
small perfectible details to be fixed!

otherwise?

Buy a bunch of parts, or a wrecked plane, and rebuild her as well as you
want her to be!

Airy

(who like to learn back how to fly those primitive planes....for instance
the oldest I flew was a 1936 biplane type).

To: fairchildclub@ yahoogroups.com
From: mcclurebill@ rocketmail.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:48:49 +0000
Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: For MF information and frustration reduction

A lot of replies, so why don't I throw in my two cents worth?
(...)

etc...

__________________________________________________________
Discutez en direct avec vos amis sur Messenger !
http://www.windowsl ive.fr/messenger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

'