Re: SV: Re: [fairchildclub] RE: Auto Fuel in Warners
Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:29 pm
'
Thank you Paul in Sweden. Your experience is relevant. Of course, auto fuel users here in the US are well aware of the vapor pressure problem and the alcohol content issue. To legally use auto fuels here, we are required to use alcohol free fuels, and testing methods whereby the user can insure he has alcohol free fuel are well understood. Also, the Supplemental Type Certificates granted for legal use of auto fuels are for specific and tested combinations of airframe and engine in order to combat the vapor lock problem. Your comments on your experiences with power cylinder cleanliness, valve seat wear and even starting and economy are very useful, thanks. Also your comments on multi-viscosity oil is appreciated.
All the Best,
Tony Lowe
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:04 PM
Subject: [fairchildclub] RE: Auto Fuel in Warners So Cy -- Maybe lubrication is not the right word. So whatever the terminology, then, using less lead is better, right? Wonder why we still have TEL in avgas -- probably not solely for octane rating improvement, as it is clear desired octane levels are being achieved without it in gasolines formulated for ground vehicles with much higher anti-knock requirements than the naturally aspirated, low compression engines in our small aircraft. Wonder why engines intended for unleaded fuels use exhaust valve seats made of material of higher hardness (actually toughness) at given temperatures -- and no, head temps are not higher with unleaded fuels. Why do engine designers tell us such materials are necessary to combat valve recession in engines using unleaded fuels. Is it just a scam to promote the use of more exotic materials? Let us know. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetra-ethyl_lead Is this just more disinformation? So, are you using auto fuel in a Warner or any other aircraft engine? Thanks.--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, wrote:TEL doesn’t lubricate anything. It is an old wives tale promoted by the ethyl corp in their advertising. As a gas, how can it lubricate? When it precipitates by condensing on valve stems with carbon from burnt oil, it sticks valves. Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft RepairA service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963http://www.eaa75.com/ From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lowea1@...
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 8:18 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fairchildclub] Auto Fuel in Warners Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you. Petersen STC's are available for my 24W and Warner 165 combination. I am contemplating using a mixture of 75% non-oxygenated (zero alcohol) premium auto fuel, and 25% 100LL avgas. This combination will have the same amount of lead contained in 80/87, the recommended fuel (proper valve seat lube), and be unlikely to have less than the 73 octane minimum specified for the engine. Thanks.'
Thank you Paul in Sweden. Your experience is relevant. Of course, auto fuel users here in the US are well aware of the vapor pressure problem and the alcohol content issue. To legally use auto fuels here, we are required to use alcohol free fuels, and testing methods whereby the user can insure he has alcohol free fuel are well understood. Also, the Supplemental Type Certificates granted for legal use of auto fuels are for specific and tested combinations of airframe and engine in order to combat the vapor lock problem. Your comments on your experiences with power cylinder cleanliness, valve seat wear and even starting and economy are very useful, thanks. Also your comments on multi-viscosity oil is appreciated.
All the Best,
Tony Lowe
Using less lead is better for the environment But not your engine. The lead is there for the lubrication and cooling and also acts as a rust inhibitor. The higher oct. is there to help slow down the burn/flash time and stop distortion. There are a couple dozen additives that are in avgas. From: "lowea1@..."--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
HiI am Paul in Sweden and have a 1943 UC61A with the Warner 165.With the stupid fuel price (3.5 USD a Q. for 100LL) we have in Europe I switched over to auto fuel seven years ago. I also switched to shell 15-50W oil. Summer time I fill with 100W. Oil change every 25FH. When it comes to the auto fuel there is two issues. One is the vapor lock temperature which is higher in auto fuel. Hot days and high altitude can be a problem. Also very warm fuel is a negative factor. We have the thank as wing skin and I have noticed fuel with 36 celsius which put it closer to the vapor lock point. If you ad altitude you may experience that the engine misfire.Have never experienced pre-detonation and that can be as I use W oil. I notice that the combustion chamber is much cleaner now. The Warner burns slow and at a low temperature. The Tel needs 960 Celsius to be burned off, so the TEL will deposit everywhere and specially in the oil. I have here’d (not confirmed) that TEL is corrosive when in contact with the moisture in the oil. I do not see way the need of TEL in our low compression engines. From what I know we have soft valve seats. Second problem is that oil companies mix ethanol in the auto fuel. That is the major problem as the ethanol pick up water. So you need to check your fuel for that. Also fuel quality can vary a lot. Alcohol in the fuel my harm rubber hoses and gaskets. Positive is the that the engine starts easy and very softly. It runs smoother. Fuel consumption is down with 10%!!!Negative is that I have to by fuel at the gas station an carry 40-60 gallons. The wing at fueling is reaching for the sky. Verify that your magnetos are set at 28 degrees. Make sure that you by auto fuel of a recognized brand and that they give you the spec. for the fuel. Auto fuel can have up to 18% toulene so if you have an aircraft painted with butyrate dope it my solve the dope if you spill. Be careful.Auto fuel ignites easy so check your grounding.In Sweden we have used Avgas without lead for many years now and have not here’d of major problems. Only the high compression engines needs it and those that travel at high altitudes.Check the latest Lycoming SI 1070S as a guide. As a recommendation I say you have 100LL in one thank and auto fuel in the other a do tests.I do not use auto fuel hot days.I will do a top overhaul at 350FH TSO now during this winter and I will notice problems.Also bare in mind the fuel quality at the time the engine was designed. Fuel companies will not promote their auto fuel as aviation fuel.Responsibility is all yours. As last. Is there folks with experience of this in the club. 100LL is soon history. Paul Från: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] För lowea1@...
Skickat: den 13 september 2013 13:50
Till: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Ämne: RE: Re: [fairchildclub] RE: Auto Fuel in Warners
As I said, "Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you." If you aren't using auto fuel in your Warner, or can't put me onto someone who does or has, no need to respond, thanks.
--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, wrote:As I understand it, lead is primarily added to reduce detonation. The valve lubrication if at all is a side benefit, but maybe others more knowledgeable can chime in.Joe
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On Sep 13, 2013, at 1:10, "Chuck Lloyd" wrote:
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:04 PM
Subject: [fairchildclub] RE: Auto Fuel in Warners So Cy -- Maybe lubrication is not the right word. So whatever the terminology, then, using less lead is better, right? Wonder why we still have TEL in avgas -- probably not solely for octane rating improvement, as it is clear desired octane levels are being achieved without it in gasolines formulated for ground vehicles with much higher anti-knock requirements than the naturally aspirated, low compression engines in our small aircraft. Wonder why engines intended for unleaded fuels use exhaust valve seats made of material of higher hardness (actually toughness) at given temperatures -- and no, head temps are not higher with unleaded fuels. Why do engine designers tell us such materials are necessary to combat valve recession in engines using unleaded fuels. Is it just a scam to promote the use of more exotic materials? Let us know. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetra-ethyl_lead Is this just more disinformation? So, are you using auto fuel in a Warner or any other aircraft engine? Thanks.--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, wrote:TEL doesn’t lubricate anything. It is an old wives tale promoted by the ethyl corp in their advertising. As a gas, how can it lubricate? When it precipitates by condensing on valve stems with carbon from burnt oil, it sticks valves. Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft RepairA service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963http://www.eaa75.com/ From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lowea1@...
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 8:18 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fairchildclub] Auto Fuel in Warners Anybody out there using auto fuel in a Warner, particularly a 165, or can put me in contact with someone who does, or has? If so, I'd like to hear from you. Petersen STC's are available for my 24W and Warner 165 combination. I am contemplating using a mixture of 75% non-oxygenated (zero alcohol) premium auto fuel, and 25% 100LL avgas. This combination will have the same amount of lead contained in 80/87, the recommended fuel (proper valve seat lube), and be unlikely to have less than the 73 octane minimum specified for the engine. Thanks.'