Fairchild Club Forum

Posted: **Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:35 pm**

'Airy,

My shoulder harness mounts to the cross tube that is above your head and behind your neck. In the event of a crash, it will NOT compress my spine, no matter how short the actual seat is.

I understand your concern about a shoulder harness mounted below the level of the shoulder blades.

I will no longer fly in any aircraft without a shoulder harness. Our old airplanes are quite safe, but in case of a a sudden impact, your face will not survive hard contact with your instrument panel. If you fly without them, I hope that you never need one. They are so cheap and easy to install that we all should have them.

Bob Waldron
Webster, MN
1939 Fairchild 24K
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1941 Piper J-3 Cub

ALL with SHOULDER HARNESSES

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Airy Millet wrote:
>
>
> I understand that a shoulder harness could fit within the plane!
>
> But I am questionning myself on the way it would work in case of crash!
>
> What part of the plane will bend, where the harness fixture is, the seat back may not injure you or even the belt itself? etc etc...
>
>
>
> Apart aerobatic aircraft I don't really feel the need of shoulder harness... even on some "utility" plane I flew I found it was quite dangerous, having a seat smaller than the height of you body, and having shoulder harness fixture on the rear seats' belts fisture!! (Seats back being too short, the top of it may injury your vertebral column)....
>
>
>
> The F24R we fly here in France is a UC-61K (argus III), and I think I am going to look deeper in the original documents if there was shoulder harness or not in the USAAF/RAF versions!!
>
>
>
>
>
> Airy
>
>
>
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> From: bob-jewell@...
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:35:50 -0600
> Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Shoulder Harness mod for Fairchild 24R
>
>
>
>
>
> I guess I don't understand the problem. The tube is probably something to
> do with the wing spars and as I remember it is over an inch diameter. The
> seats don't enter into it. I got the harnesses from Spruce and they fit
> onto the stock seat belts with no problem.
>
> RRW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Airy Millet"
> To: "fairchildlist"
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 4:25 PM
> Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] Shoulder Harness mod for Fairchild 24R
>
> but do you use orginal seats with such shoulder harness??
>
> otherwise I will find such arrangement quite dangerous...no?
>
> Airy
>
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> From: cgalley@...
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:24:29 -0600
> Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Shoulder Harness mod for Fairchild 24R
>
> You don't need a 337 nor an STC! look at your AC 21-34
>
> Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
> A service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963
> www.eaa75.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:59 PM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Shoulder Harness mod for Fairchild 24R
>
> Does anyone have information or copies of previously approved 337's on
> adding shoulder harness's to the pilot and copilot seats? I would like to
> understand what belt and harness combination has been succesful and what was
> used as the attach point. I haven't had much luck locating STC's for the F24
> yet on this subject. Thanks, Steve
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Découvrez Windows 7 en 7 secondes !
> http://clk.atdmt.com/FRM/go/181574577/direct/01/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tchattez en direct en en vidéo avec vos amis !
> http://www.windowslive.fr/messenger/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

'

Posted: **Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:48 pm**

'I understand!

And I follow your meaning!

Here are some pix of the crash of a friend with his stearman, some kind of miracle, because today nobody could say he had an accident!!

http://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/dossiers/diaporama/diaporama.php?dos=infos_crash_meeting_2009&sz=1

(it take a little bit time to upload all chrono-images).

very impressing! Despite his full aerobatic harness (original in stearmans) he brokes his jaw in 3 parts!! and get the face on panel and stick, when the seats goes down into the fuselage!

Hopefully there was nobody in front, it won't have been so easy for any front passenger.

But in other way, even a good harness well installed in an aerobatic aircraft can kill....in a cap232 here in france, there was an accident with a plane, breaking in flight, the wing being lost apart from the fuselage...the pilot's body was cut in two by the harness.....as two points were attached to the wing longeron attachement points, where the fuselge break. But, it is something exceptionnal!

Airy

To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
From: rangerrobertmn@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 00:35:27 +0000
Subject: [fairchildclub] Re: Shoulder Harness mod for Fairchild 24R

Airy,

My shoulder harness mounts to the cross tube that is above your head and behind your neck. In the event of a crash, it will NOT compress my spine, no matter how short the actual seat is.

I understand your concern about a shoulder harness mounted below the level of the shoulder blades.

I will no longer fly in any aircraft without a shoulder harness. Our old airplanes are quite safe, but in case of a a sudden impact, your face will not survive hard contact with your instrument panel. If you fly without them, I hope that you never need one. They are so cheap and easy to install that we all should have them.

Bob Waldron
Webster, MN
1939 Fairchild 24K
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1941 Piper J-3 Cub

ALL with SHOULDER HARNESSES

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Airy Millet wrote:
>
>
> I understand that a shoulder harness could fit within the plane!
>
> But I am questionning myself on the way it would work in case of crash!
>
> What part of the plane will bend, where the harness fixture is, the seat back may not injure you or even the belt itself? etc etc...
>
>
>
> Apart aerobatic aircraft I don't really feel the need of shoulder harness... even on some "utility" plane I flew I found it was quite dangerous, having a seat smaller than the height of you body, and having shoulder harness fixture on the rear seats' belts fisture!! (Seats back being too short, the top of it may injury your vertebral column)....
>
>
>
> The F24R we fly here in France is a UC-61K (argus III), and I think I am going to look deeper in the original documents if there was shoulder harness or not in the USAAF/RAF versions!!
>
>
>
>
>
> Airy
>
>
>
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> From: bob-jewell@...
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:35:50 -0600
> Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Shoulder Harness mod for Fairchild 24R
>
>
>
>
>
> I guess I don't understand the problem. The tube is probably something to
> do with the wing spars and as I remember it is over an inch diameter. The
> seats don't enter into it. I got the harnesses from Spruce and they fit
> onto the stock seat belts with no problem.
>
> RRW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Airy Millet"
> To: "fairchildlist"
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 4:25 PM
> Subject: RE: [fairchildclub] Shoulder Harness mod for Fairchild 24R
>
> but do you use orginal seats with such shoulder harness??
>
> otherwise I will find such arrangement quite dangerous...no?
>
> Airy
>
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> From: cgalley@...
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:24:29 -0600
> Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Shoulder Harness mod for Fairchild 24R
>
> You don't need a 337 nor an STC! look at your AC 21-34
>
> Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
> A service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963
> www.eaa75.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:59 PM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Shoulder Harness mod for Fairchild 24R
>
> Does anyone have information or copies of previously approved 337's on
> adding shoulder harness's to the pilot and copilot seats? I would like to
> understand what belt and harness combination has been succesful and what was
> used as the attach point. I haven't had much luck locating STC's for the F24
> yet on this subject. Thanks, Steve
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> __________________________________________________________
> D?couvrez Windows 7 en 7 secondes !
> http://clk.atdmt.com/FRM/go/181574577/direct/01/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Tchattez en direct en en vid?o avec vos amis !
> http://www.windowslive.fr/messenger/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
Discutez en direct avec vos amis sur Messenger !
http://www.windowslive.fr/messenger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

'

Posted: **Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:12 pm**

'I think once the wing is gone the harness isn't going to matter all
that much...

On Jan 24, 2010, at 5:46 PM, Airy Millet wrote:

> there was an accident with a plane, breaking in flight, the wing
> being lost apart from the fuselage...the pilot's body was cut in two
> by the harness.....

Dan Casali
Owner
The Calculated Image, LLC
Box 1286 Ketchum, ID 83340
208.928.7083

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

'

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:42 pm**

'On Jan 24, 2010, at 2:38 PM, Bob Webster wrote:

> I am not at my home now, so I don't have access to this info but all I did was wrap the shoulder harness straps around the large tube going across the top of fuselage behind the front seat and tied them with a good wrap knot and slit the fabric covering the cross tube for the straps to go through.

I would like to be able to mount the harness to a clamp on the spar carry-through tube to prevent the shoulder harness from sliding sideways in case of a lateral load. Does anyone know of a stock part that would fit?

Thanks,

:Dan Michael
:NC81323

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:28 am**

'Dan Michael,

I made an 'adel clamp' out of .050 flat stock, and attached the shoulder harness bracket to it. The clamp 'just barely' sticks through the upholstery and does not show.

Bob Waldron
Webster, MN
1939 24 K

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, danMichael wrote:
>
> On Jan 24, 2010, at 2:38 PM, Bob Webster wrote:
>
> > I am not at my home now, so I don't have access to this info but all I did was wrap the shoulder harness straps around the large tube going across the top of fuselage behind the front seat and tied them with a good wrap knot and slit the fabric covering the cross tube for the straps to go through.
>
> I would like to be able to mount the harness to a clamp on the spar carry-through tube to prevent the shoulder harness from sliding sideways in case of a lateral load. Does anyone know of a stock part that would fit?
>
> Thanks,
>
> :Dan Michael
> :NC81323
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

'

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:19 pm**

'Thanks Bob and Dan,

That's the information I was looking for. I guess I did not make that very clear (I am aware of the AC), but wanted to know if anyone had instructions (337)in their records before the AC was put out. I know some of the older aircraft have STC's from companies that have a package ready shoulder harness for installations in the Stinson and several others, but did not see one for the F24. I think I will take Bob's advice and make an Adel clamp for the spar carry through tube. I have some .050 4130 sheet in the hangar and will take pictures of the clamp and installation and post in the photos folder once complete.

Michael - We're having a fly-in at Rucker Airfield (SN34), our home field on Memorial Day. I hope that you may be able to fly out in your Fairchild, too. Information on our firld can be found at http://ruckerfield.blogspot.com/ and information on our MAAG group can be found at http://www.maag.us/ All will be welcome!

Thanks again everyone for your feedback.

Steve

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" wrote:
>
> Dan Michael,
>
> I made an 'adel clamp' out of .050 flat stock, and attached the shoulder harness bracket to it. The clamp 'just barely' sticks through the upholstery and does not show.
>
> Bob Waldron
> Webster, MN
> 1939 24 K
>
>
> --- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, danMichael wrote:
> >
> > On Jan 24, 2010, at 2:38 PM, Bob Webster wrote:
> >
> > > I am not at my home now, so I don't have access to this info but all I did was wrap the shoulder harness straps around the large tube going across the top of fuselage behind the front seat and tied them with a good wrap knot and slit the fabric covering the cross tube for the straps to go through.
> >
> > I would like to be able to mount the harness to a clamp on the spar carry-through tube to prevent the shoulder harness from sliding sideways in case of a lateral load. Does anyone know of a stock part that would fit?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > :Dan Michael
> > :NC81323
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

'

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:45 pm**

'Regarding the question of to add shoulder harnesses or not, even when the
installation is less than perfect structurally or geometrically, let me
chime in.

For those of us flying PTs the geometry of the shoulder harness installation
is less than desireable.

Early PTs had no shoulder harness provisions on the seat, but later they did
and most have a spring loaded take up reel or spring tube mounted to the
lower back of the seat that afforded attachement of the shoulder harness and
allowed it to be locked/unlocked to allow mor motion in flight. If they
don't have the take up feature the harness can and sometimes is mounted
directly to structure behind and slightly below the top of the seat.

This seat and harness arrangement was virtually universal across WW2
airplanes(Stearmans, BTs, T-6s, Wildcats, P-40s, B-29s, etc.).

The negative of this, as Airy correctly points out, is that the attach point
and load bearing surface of the shoulder harness is well below the top of
the pilot's shoulders and can cause a crush load on the back in an accident.

However, in a less than catastrophic accident/incident the choice between
not having a shoulder harness and a less than perfect one is an easy one.

My little off field adventure last year in my PT resulted in a pretty quick
stoppage of the airplane. Touchdown(at flying speed) to stop in 28 feet.
That's about a 4G stop. Without shoulder harnesses there is no doubt I(and
my still lovely wife) would have suffered some sort of facial injuries from
impacting the instrument panel. In fact, after the dust settled I knew I
was OK because I hadn't eaten any instruments or impacted the stick.

My seat stayed attached to structure, unlike(I'm assuming) the unfortunate
Stearman pilot. Or was there some other contributing factor in his
case(structure seat mounted to deformed/broke, harness or attach point
broke, harness not locked, etc.)?

My shoulder was a bit sore the next day, but I think that would have been
the case with any harness installation.

So, yes often times the geometry isn't as you would want. Or you
can conceive of a survivable accident where the harness attach point will
break first. But, I still think something is better than nothing in most
cases.

--
Curt Kinchen
ptcurt@gmail.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]'

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:08 pm**

'Thanks for chiming in Curt and glad to hear you're both OK. Exactly why I am adding harnesses.

Safe flying to all!

Steve

--- In fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com, Curt Kinchen wrote:
>
> Regarding the question of to add shoulder harnesses or not, even when the
> installation is less than perfect structurally or geometrically, let me
> chime in.
>
> For those of us flying PTs the geometry of the shoulder harness installation
> is less than desireable.
>
> Early PTs had no shoulder harness provisions on the seat, but later they did
> and most have a spring loaded take up reel or spring tube mounted to the
> lower back of the seat that afforded attachement of the shoulder harness and
> allowed it to be locked/unlocked to allow mor motion in flight. If they
> don't have the take up feature the harness can and sometimes is mounted
> directly to structure behind and slightly below the top of the seat.
>
> This seat and harness arrangement was virtually universal across WW2
> airplanes(Stearmans, BTs, T-6s, Wildcats, P-40s, B-29s, etc.).
>
> The negative of this, as Airy correctly points out, is that the attach point
> and load bearing surface of the shoulder harness is well below the top of
> the pilot's shoulders and can cause a crush load on the back in an accident.
>
> However, in a less than catastrophic accident/incident the choice between
> not having a shoulder harness and a less than perfect one is an easy one.
>
> My little off field adventure last year in my PT resulted in a pretty quick
> stoppage of the airplane. Touchdown(at flying speed) to stop in 28 feet.
> That's about a 4G stop. Without shoulder harnesses there is no doubt I(and
> my still lovely wife) would have suffered some sort of facial injuries from
> impacting the instrument panel. In fact, after the dust settled I knew I
> was OK because I hadn't eaten any instruments or impacted the stick.
>
> My seat stayed attached to structure, unlike(I'm assuming) the unfortunate
> Stearman pilot. Or was there some other contributing factor in his
> case(structure seat mounted to deformed/broke, harness or attach point
> broke, harness not locked, etc.)?
>
> My shoulder was a bit sore the next day, but I think that would have been
> the case with any harness installation.
>
> So, yes often times the geometry isn't as you would want. Or you
> can conceive of a survivable accident where the harness attach point will
> break first. But, I still think something is better than nothing in most
> cases.
>
> --
> Curt Kinchen
> ptcurt@...
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

'