Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40

ccmueller001 · Post by **ccmueller001** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:36 am

'A trick that an old IA taught me is to use a felt tip pen to check for a possible spar crack: touch a felt tip pen to what might be a crack - if the crack is really there capillary action will draw the ink along the crack and expose its existence. If the ink doesn't go anywhere - no crack.

Charles'

Michael Thomas · Post by **Michael Thomas** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:58 am

'Thanks Charles i will remember that. Im learning a lot from this thread

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 4, 2015, at 07:36, cmueller@csuchico.edu [fairchildclub] wrote:

A trick that an old IA taught me is to use a felt tip pen to check for a possible spar crack: touch a felt tip pen to what might be a crack - if the crack is really there capillary action will draw the ink along the crack and expose its existence. If the ink doesn't go anywhere - no crack.

Charles '

ccmueller001 · Post by **ccmueller001** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:59 am

'This group is a gold mine of information.'

Hans Friedebach · Post by **Hans Friedebach** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:22 am

'

Additional comment re: Michael Thomas original spar use
My earlier comments were aimed at the airworthiness determination question.

Reflecting on the forum thread, I realize that the issue really goes beyond airworthiness into the economics. If Mike has spars lying on the bench that means
the wings have been totally disassembled. At that stage there is so much labor required to build up a set of airworthy wings that the end result would not justify the effort and expense. Mike would have at best an airworthy “old” wing. Considering the total
investment in the finished airplane, my sense is that the resale value and re-sale-ability of the airplane would suffer more than the cost of using new(though expensive) spar stock.

Bottom line:

although I arrive at the same conclusion, but for a different reason than Dave@ranchaero, I would also go for new Sitka Spruce Spars.

And yes, the old spars can fly once more as braces for new ribs. I’m doing that right now with some old retired Stearman spars.

After more than 30 years of buying and selling vintage airplanes I find that the “Best” airplane is the most saleable. Not just a question of how much you get
for it, but can you find anyone with the money. The people who have both the desire AND the money will go for the “Best”. Until that day the restorer has the enjoyment and satisfaction of having and enjoying the “Best”, too, even if it is not done on the basis
of economics alone.

Thanks for letting me share these thoughts with you all.

Hans

From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 10:00 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40

This group is a gold mine of information.

'

Michael Thomas · Post by **Michael Thomas** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:02 pm

'Hans,
I have talked with a couple people who have gone with new douglas fir spars instead of sitka spruce. They said this only adds two pounds per wing and more strength than spruce. What is your opinion and how do you think this would effect the value/resale of the plane?
Thanks,Mike
Sent from my iPad

On Jul 4, 2015, at 11:22, Hans Friedebach hans@tsoproducts.com [fairchildclub] wrote:

Additional comment re: Michael Thomas original spar use My earlier comments were aimed at the airworthiness determination question. Reflecting on the forum thread, I realize that the issue really goes beyond airworthiness into the economics. If Mike has spars lying on the bench that means the wings have been totally disassembled. At that stage there is so much labor required to build up a set of airworthy wings that the end result would not justify the effort and expense. Mike would have at best an airworthy “old” wing. Considering the total investment in the finished airplane, my sense is that the resale value and re-sale-ability of the airplane would suffer more than the cost of using new(though expensive) spar stock. Bottom line: although I arrive at the same conclusion, but for a different reason than Dave@ranchaero, I would also go for new Sitka Spruce Spars. And yes, the old spars can fly once more as braces for new ribs. I’m doing that right now with some old retired Stearman spars. After more than 30 years of buying and selling vintage airplanes I find that the “Best” airplane is the most saleable. Not just a question of how much you get for it, but can you find anyone with the money. The people who have both the desire AND the money will go for the “Best”. Until that day the restorer has the enjoyment and satisfaction of having and enjoying the “Best”, too, even if it is not done on the basis of economics alone. Thanks for letting me share these thoughts with you all. Hans From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 10:00 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40
This group is a gold mine of information.
'

Ranchaero Wing Shop · Post by **Ranchaero Wing Shop** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:04 pm

' My 2 cents - Doug Fir is good for spars, stronger for the dimension, and just a little heavier. However it may not be easy to find really straight-grained stock. I look and look for good D.F. around here. What I find is good vertical and close grained, but it always has little wiggles in the grain that I don't like. It's gotta be real straight grained.

One drawback of D.F. is that it doesn't machine as nicely as Sitka. It splits easily, so you gotta take extra precautions when planing, sawing, and drilling to avoid problems. For this reason, one should be even pickier about the vertical grain with D.F.

David

On 7/4/2015 11:02 AM, Michael Thomas michael_thomas8@yahoo.com [fairchildclub] wrote:

Hans,
I have talked with a couple people who have gone with new douglas fir spars instead of sitka spruce. They said this only adds two pounds per wing and more strength than spruce. What is your opinion and how do you think this would effect the value/resale of the plane?
Thanks, Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 4, 2015, at 11:22, Hans Friedebach hans@tsoproducts.com [fairchildclub] wrote:

Additional comment re: Michael Thomas original spar use My earlier comments were aimed at the airworthiness determination question. Reflecting on the forum thread, I realize that the issue really goes beyond airworthiness into the economics. If Mike has spars lying on the bench that means the wings have been totally disassembled. At that stage there is so much labor required to build up a set of airworthy wings that the end result would not justify the effort and expense. Mike would have at best an airworthy “old” wing. Considering the total investment in the finished airplane, my sense is that the resale value and re-sale-ability of the airplane would suffer more than the cost of using new(though expensive) spar stock. Bottom line: although I arrive at the same conclusion, but for a different reason than Dave@ranchaero, I would also go for new Sitka Spruce Spars. And yes, the old spars can fly once more as braces for new ribs. I’m doing that right now with some old retired Stearman spars. After more than 30 years of buying and selling vintage airplanes I find that the “Best” airplane is the most saleable. Not just a question of how much you get for it, but can you find anyone with the money. The people who have both the desire AND the money will go for the “Best”. Until that day the restorer has the enjoyment and satisfaction of having and enjoying the “Best”, too, even if it is not done on the basis of economics alone. Thanks for letting me share these thoughts with you all. Hans From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 10:00 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40
This group is a gold mine of information.

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com
'

Cy Galley · Post by **Cy Galley** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:22 pm

'What does the Spar or wing print say about wood type? From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 1:02 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40 Hans, I have talked with a couple people who have gone with new douglas fir spars instead of sitka spruce. They said this only adds two pounds per wing and more strength than spruce. What is your opinion and how do you think this would effect the value/resale of the plane? Thanks,Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 4, 2015, at 11:22, Hans Friedebach hans@tsoproducts.com [fairchildclub] wrote:

Additional comment re: Michael Thomas original spar useMy earlier comments were aimed at the airworthiness determination question. Reflecting on the forum thread, I realize that the issue really goes beyond airworthiness into the economics. If Mike has spars lying on the bench that means the wings have been totally disassembled. At that stage there is so much labor required to build up a set of airworthy wings that the end result would not justify the effort and expense. Mike would have at best an airworthy “old” wing. Considering the total investment in the finished airplane, my sense is that the resale value and re-sale-ability of the airplane would suffer more than the cost of using new(though expensive) spar stock. Bottom line: although I arrive at the same conclusion, but for a different reason than Dave@ranchaero, I would also go for new Sitka Spruce Spars. And yes, the old spars can fly once more as braces for new ribs. I’m doing that right now with some old retired Stearman spars. After more than 30 years of buying and selling vintage airplanes I find that the “Best” airplane is the most saleable. Not just a question of how much you get for it, but can you find anyone with the money. The people who have both the desire AND the money will go for the “Best”. Until that day the restorer has the enjoyment and satisfaction of having and enjoying the “Best”, too, even if it is not done on the basis of economics alone. Thanks for letting me share these thoughts with you all. HansFrom: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 10:00 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40
This group is a gold mine of information.

'

Michael Thomas · Post by **Michael Thomas** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:54 pm

'I dont know what the spar/ wing print says. I dont have a set of prints yet, but i believe AC43.13 lists douglas fir as an acceptable substitute. Still just gathering info and i really appreciate everyones input.Mike

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 4, 2015, at 14:22, 'Cy Galley' cgalley@mchsi.com [fairchildclub] wrote:

What does the Spar or wing print say about wood type? From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 1:02 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40 Hans, I have talked with a couple people who have gone with new douglas fir spars instead of sitka spruce. They said this only adds two pounds per wing and more strength than spruce. What is your opinion and how do you think this would effect the value/resale of the plane? Thanks,Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 4, 2015, at 11:22, Hans Friedebach hans@tsoproducts.com [fairchildclub] wrote: Additional comment re: Michael Thomas original spar useMy earlier comments were aimed at the airworthiness determination question. Reflecting on the forum thread, I realize that the issue really goes beyond airworthiness into the economics. If Mike has spars lying on the bench that means the wings have been totally disassembled. At that stage there is so much labor required to build up a set of airworthy wings that the end result would not justify the effort and expense. Mike would have at best an airworthy “old” wing. Considering the total investment in the finished airplane, my sense is that the resale value and re-sale-ability of the airplane would suffer more than the cost of using new(though expensive) spar stock. Bottom line: although I arrive at the same conclusion, but for a different reason than Dave@ranchaero, I would also go for new Sitka Spruce Spars. And yes, the old spars can fly once more as braces for new ribs. I’m doing that right now with some old retired Stearman spars. After more than 30 years of buying and selling vintage airplanes I find that the “Best” airplane is the most saleable. Not just a question of how much you get for it, but can you find anyone with the money. The people who have both the desire AND the money will go for the “Best”. Until that day the restorer has the enjoyment and satisfaction of having and enjoying the “Best”, too, even if it is not done on the basis of economics alone. Thanks for letting me share these thoughts with you all. HansFrom: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 10:00 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40
This group is a gold mine of information.
'

Hans Friedebach · Post by **Hans Friedebach** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:12 pm

'

Mike,
Doug Fir is an FAA accepted and less expensive alternate to Sitka Spruce.
The drawback is twofold

·
it likes to split and splinter and is not as easy to work with as Sitka Spruce.
·
Weighs more than Sitka Spruce – useful load penalty especially for an airplane that is not generously set with useful load to begin with. But run the
math yourself and figure how many pounds and what percentage of useful load it will cost you.

I don’t believe you are likely to see a difference in resale price with Doug Fir Spars – most buyers don’t drill down to that level of technical detail unless
something raises a flag. I have never had a prospective buyer ask about useful load on any vintage airplane I have sold.

Ask Mike Kelly about his experience building F24 wings and what he advises. I know that Marc Stamsta
  (262) 490-8451
www.maxaero.net
Hartford, Municipal Airport KHXF in Wisconsin
uses Doug Fir for HOWARD DGA spars (a bit more flexibility with useful load on those) He also builds Fairchild wing kits. One way to dodge the workability issue is to let someone who does it all the time do it for you.

Hans

From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 2:02 PM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40

Hans,

I have talked with a couple people who have gone with new douglas fir spars instead of sitka spruce. They said this only adds two pounds per wing and more strength than spruce. What is your opinion and how do you think this would effect
the value/resale of the plane?

Thanks,

Mike

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 4, 2015, at 11:22, Hans Friedebach hans@tsoproducts.com [fairchildclub] wrote:

Additional comment re: Michael Thomas original spar use
My earlier comments were aimed at the airworthiness determination question.

Reflecting on the forum thread, I realize that the issue really goes beyond airworthiness into the
economics. If Mike has spars lying on the bench that means the wings have been totally disassembled. At that stage there is so much labor required to build up a set of airworthy wings that the end result would not justify the effort and expense. Mike would
have at best an airworthy “old” wing. Considering the total investment in the finished airplane, my sense is that the resale value and re-sale-ability of the airplane would suffer more than the cost of using new(though expensive) spar stock.

Bottom line:

although I arrive at the same conclusion, but for a different reason than Dave@ranchaero, I would also
go for new Sitka Spruce Spars.
And yes, the old spars can fly once more as braces for new ribs. I’m doing that right now with some
old retired Stearman spars.

After more than 30 years of buying and selling vintage airplanes I find that the “Best” airplane is
the most saleable. Not just a question of how much you get for it, but can you find anyone with the money. The people who have both the desire AND the money will go for the “Best”. Until that day the restorer has the enjoyment and satisfaction of having and
enjoying the “Best”, too, even if it is not done on the basis of economics alone.

Thanks for letting me share these thoughts with you all.

Hans

From:
fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 10:00 AM
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40

This group is a gold mine of information.

'

Andrew Budek-Schmeisser · Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:51 pm

'In regard to using DF, keep in mind that AC43.13 does allow spars to
be laminated, either vertically or horizontally. Finding a good
single-piece blank of DF is tough, but smaller pieces that can be
laminated present less of a problem.

Russ Harmuth uses DF in his full-size Spitfire replica (Allison
powered), and I believe he sourced his lumber from Southern Lumber in
San Jose, CA. I've talked with them; they seem to understand the
requirement for good CVG (clear vertical grain) pieces.

On 7/4/15, Hans Friedebach hans@tsoproducts.com [fairchildclub]
wrote:

> Mike,
> Doug Fir is an FAA accepted and less expensive alternate to Sitka Spruce.
> The drawback is twofold
>
> · it likes to split and splinter and is not as easy to work with as
> Sitka Spruce.
>
> · Weighs more than Sitka Spruce – useful load penalty especially for
> an airplane that is not generously set with useful load to begin with. But
> run the math yourself and figure how many pounds and what percentage of
> useful load it will cost you.
>
> I don’t believe you are likely to see a difference in resale price with Doug
> Fir Spars – most buyers don’t drill down to that level of technical detail
> unless something raises a flag. I have never had a prospective buyer ask
> about useful load on any vintage airplane I have sold.
>
>
> Ask Mike Kelly about his experience building F24 wings and what he advises.
> I know that Marc Stamsta (262) 490-8451
> www.maxaero.net Hartford, Municipal Airport KHXF in
> Wisconsin uses Doug Fir for HOWARD DGA spars (a bit more flexibility with
> useful load on those) He also builds Fairchild wing kits. One way to dodge
> the workability issue is to let someone who does it all the time do it for
> you.
>
> Hans
>
>
>
>
> From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 2:02 PM
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40
>
>
> Hans,
>
> I have talked with a couple people who have gone with new douglas fir spars
> instead of sitka spruce. They said this only adds two pounds per wing and
> more strength than spruce. What is your opinion and how do you think this
> would effect the value/resale of the plane?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 4, 2015, at 11:22, Hans Friedebach
> hans@tsoproducts.com [fairchildclub]
>
> wrote:
>
> Additional comment re: Michael Thomas original spar use
> My earlier comments were aimed at the airworthiness determination question.
>
> Reflecting on the forum thread, I realize that the issue really goes beyond
> airworthiness into the economics. If Mike has spars lying on the bench that
> means the wings have been totally disassembled. At that stage there is so
> much labor required to build up a set of airworthy wings that the end result
> would not justify the effort and expense. Mike would have at best an
> airworthy “old” wing. Considering the total investment in the finished
> airplane, my sense is that the resale value and re-sale-ability of the
> airplane would suffer more than the cost of using new(though expensive) spar
> stock.
>
> Bottom line:
> although I arrive at the same conclusion, but for a different reason than
> Dave@ranchaero, I would also go for new Sitka Spruce Spars.
> And yes, the old spars can fly once more as braces for new ribs. I’m doing
> that right now with some old retired Stearman spars.
>
> After more than 30 years of buying and selling vintage airplanes I find that
> the “Best” airplane is the most saleable. Not just a question of how much
> you get for it, but can you find anyone with the money. The people who have
> both the desire AND the money will go for the “Best”. Until that day the
> restorer has the enjoyment and satisfaction of having and enjoying the
> “Best”, too, even if it is not done on the basis of economics alone.
>
> Thanks for letting me share these thoughts with you all.
>
> Hans
> From: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 10:00 AM
> To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [fairchildclub] Re: Wing Spars Fairchild 24W40
>
>
>
> This group is a gold mine of information.
>
>

'