Re: Wood glue update and battery surprise

Charles Mueller · Post by **Charles Mueller** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:32 am

'Thank you all for the helpful feedback. As usual a question to this
newsgroup pays off again.

Out of curiosity I started down the FAA path to find an answer for a
Resorcinol glue alternative that has the FAAs blessing - somewhat like
Resorcinol has had in the past (i.e. no questions asked if it was
being used).

After talking with the local FSDO I was passed on to the (ACO)
Aircraft Certification Office). Everyone seemed eager to help, but no
definitive answers. Best response I got was "Find a current aircraft
manufacturer that is using wood and ask what they are using."

One friend that used System 3s T-88 on his Tiger Moth wing ended up
having to go with an experimental certificate until he installed a
thermometer in the top wing and agreed to not fly when internal temps
reached some level. Evidently T-88 softens at higher temps, something
that I had never heard about.

Anyway the upshot of the whole deal is that Wicks Aircraft Supply is
sending me a pint of Resorcinol. Problem solved.

On a different subject - Got another jolt this week when I replaced a
Concorde CB-35A battery. Cost was $220 from Chief Aircraft. Last
year's catalog shows $150 for the same battery. Should have bought
some lead futures I suppose.'

Buell Powell · Post by **Buell Powell** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:36 am

'I use Resorcinol glue for anything structural. T88 works well for me if
I mix with saw dust for filling in a void-If I need to make a filler
that is waterproof and strong I use Fiberglass Resin and sawdust. Most
of what I learned about wood work is from working on old wood boats but
sometimes it can be useful on working on old planes also.
Buell Powell

Charles Mueller wrote:

>
> Thank you all for the helpful feedback. As usual a question to this
> newsgroup pays off again.
>
> Out of curiosity I started down the FAA path to find an answer for a
> Resorcinol glue alternative that has the FAAs blessing - somewhat like
> Resorcinol has had in the past (i.e. no questions asked if it was
> being used).
>
> After talking with the local FSDO I was passed on to the (ACO)
> Aircraft Certification Office). Everyone seemed eager to help, but no
> definitive answers. Best response I got was "Find a current aircraft
> manufacturer that is using wood and ask what they are using."
>
> One friend that used System 3s T-88 on his Tiger Moth wing ended up
> having to go with an experimental certificate until he installed a
> thermometer in the top wing and agreed to not fly when internal temps
> reached some level. Evidently T-88 softens at higher temps, something
> that I had never heard about.
>
> Anyway the upshot of the whole deal is that Wicks Aircraft Supply is
> sending me a pint of Resorcinol. Problem solved.
>
> On a different subject - Got another jolt this week when I replaced a
> Concorde CB-35A battery. Cost was $220 from Chief Aircraft. Last
> year's catalog shows $150 for the same battery. Should have bought
> some lead futures I suppose.
>
>

'

cgalley · Post by **cgalley** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:16 am

'I have heard the doom and gloom epoxy stories before. I think the Tiger Moth one is very old. ALL epoxies soften and lose strength BUT when they cool and re-harden, the next time they don't soften until it reaches a new higher temp. It is called "post-curing." Even at the elevated temp when it begins to soften, it is stronger than the old resorcinol.

Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
New address - cgalley@mchsi.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Mueller
To: fairchildclub@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 9:32 AM
Subject: [fairchildclub] Wood glue update and battery surprise

Thank you all for the helpful feedback. As usual a question to this
newsgroup pays off again.

Out of curiosity I started down the FAA path to find an answer for asorcimal
Resorcinol glue alternative that has the FAAs blessing - somewhat like
Resorcinol has had in the past (i.e. no questions asked if it was
being used).

After talking with the local FSDO I was passed on to the (ACO)
Aircraft Certification Office). Everyone seemed eager to help, but no
definitive answers. Best response I got was "Find a current aircraft
manufacturer that is using wood and ask what they are using."

One friend that used System 3s T-88 on his Tiger Moth wing ended up
having to go with an experimental certificate until he installed a
thermometer in the top wing and agreed to not fly when internal temps
reached some level. Evidently T-88 softens at higher temps, something
that I had never heard about.

Anyway the upshot of the whole deal is that Wicks Aircraft Supply is
sending me a pint of Resorcinol. Problem solved.

On a different subject - Got another jolt this week when I replaced a
Concorde CB-35A battery. Cost was $220 from Chief Aircraft. Last
year's catalog shows $150 for the same battery. Should have bought
some lead futures I suppose.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

'

Buell Powell · Post by **Buell Powell** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:45 am

'Cy,
Your probably right-the reason I have always preferred the old
resorcinol glue is that my uncle who has built and restored old boats
since the 30's told me that is what was used to bind marine plywood
together and I have seen old rotted plywood that the glue was still
holding it together. I suppose that I just don't know know enough about
T88 to trust using it on something I need to be permanent. I do like the
fact that it is good for filling in voids when gluing 2 pieces of wood
together and I believe works when you can't apply pressure.
Any information you have about T88 as far as strength, longevity, or
resistance to failure from extreme heat or cold would really be appreciated.
Thanks,
Buell Powell

cgalley wrote:

>
> I have heard the doom and gloom epoxy stories before. I think the
> Tiger Moth one is very old. ALL epoxies soften and lose strength BUT
> when they cool and re-harden, the next time they don't soften until it
> reaches a new higher temp. It is called "post-curing. " Even at the
> elevated temp when it begins to soften, it is stronger than the old
> resorcinol.
>
> Cy Galley
> EAA Safety Programs Editor
> Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
> New address - cgalley@mchsi. com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Charles Mueller
> To: fairchildclub@ yahoogroups. com
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 9:32 AM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Wood glue update and battery surprise
>
> Thank you all for the helpful feedback. As usual a question to this
> newsgroup pays off again.
>
> Out of curiosity I started down the FAA path to find an answer for
> asorcimal
> Resorcinol glue alternative that has the FAAs blessing - somewhat like
> Resorcinol has had in the past (i.e. no questions asked if it was
> being used).
>
> After talking with the local FSDO I was passed on to the (ACO)
> Aircraft Certification Office). Everyone seemed eager to help, but no
> definitive answers. Best response I got was "Find a current aircraft
> manufacturer that is using wood and ask what they are using."
>
> One friend that used System 3s T-88 on his Tiger Moth wing ended up
> having to go with an experimental certificate until he installed a
> thermometer in the top wing and agreed to not fly when internal temps
> reached some level. Evidently T-88 softens at higher temps, something
> that I had never heard about.
>
> Anyway the upshot of the whole deal is that Wicks Aircraft Supply is
> sending me a pint of Resorcinol. Problem solved.
>
> On a different subject - Got another jolt this week when I replaced a
> Concorde CB-35A battery. Cost was $220 from Chief Aircraft. Last
> year's catalog shows $150 for the same battery. Should have bought
> some lead futures I suppose.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

'

Buell Powell · Post by **Buell Powell** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:11 pm

'Cy,
I found the tensile strength of T88-7000 psi. I haven't found the temp
extremes. It also is resistant to some listed solvents but doesn't list
MEK. The resorcinol glue data I found list that it is impervious to all
solvents and temp extremes. One advantage I found that T88 has is that
you can apply it to damp wood. Just wondering what part of the Tiger
Moth was considered not safe because of T88 losing strength because of
high temps.I would think that with starting at 7000 psi it would have to
lose a great deal before it would loose enough to be less than what is
required for the applications I can think of. Must be some test
somewhere for the requirement that was made for the Tiger Moth.
Buell

cgalley wrote:

>
> I have heard the doom and gloom epoxy stories before. I think the
> Tiger Moth one is very old. ALL epoxies soften and lose strength BUT
> when they cool and re-harden, the next time they don't soften until it
> reaches a new higher temp. It is called "post-curing. " Even at the
> elevated temp when it begins to soften, it is stronger than the old
> resorcinol.
>
> Cy Galley
> EAA Safety Programs Editor
> Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
> New address - cgalley@mchsi. com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Charles Mueller
> To: fairchildclub@ yahoogroups. com
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 9:32 AM
> Subject: [fairchildclub] Wood glue update and battery surprise
>
> Thank you all for the helpful feedback. As usual a question to this
> newsgroup pays off again.
>
> Out of curiosity I started down the FAA path to find an answer for
> asorcimal
> Resorcinol glue alternative that has the FAAs blessing - somewhat like
> Resorcinol has had in the past (i.e. no questions asked if it was
> being used).
>
> After talking with the local FSDO I was passed on to the (ACO)
> Aircraft Certification Office). Everyone seemed eager to help, but no
> definitive answers. Best response I got was "Find a current aircraft
> manufacturer that is using wood and ask what they are using."
>
> One friend that used System 3s T-88 on his Tiger Moth wing ended up
> having to go with an experimental certificate until he installed a
> thermometer in the top wing and agreed to not fly when internal temps
> reached some level. Evidently T-88 softens at higher temps, something
> that I had never heard about.
>
> Anyway the upshot of the whole deal is that Wicks Aircraft Supply is
> sending me a pint of Resorcinol. Problem solved.
>
> On a different subject - Got another jolt this week when I replaced a
> Concorde CB-35A battery. Cost was $220 from Chief Aircraft. Last
> year's catalog shows $150 for the same battery. Should have bought
> some lead futures I suppose.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

'